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Miner's Account of Monroe's Death
Former Los Angeles prosecutor John W. Miner was head of the District Attorney's medical-legal section when Marilyn Monroe died.

THE MARILYN MONROE STORY


The Autopsy

Why was I there? Soon after I was appointed a Deputy District Attorney of Los Angeles County, California, I founded and headed the Medical-Legal Section which specialized in the investigation and prosecution of crimes

presenting complex medical problems. I was designated as liaison to the County's Chief Medical Examiner-Coroner As such, I went to as many autopsies as my schedule permitted, amounting to several thousand over the years.

Forensic pathology asks the body to tell every thing it can about what caused its death: when it died; how it died; was it murdered. To get answers involves surgery, microscopic examinations and the laboratory sciences. Some answers belong to the Law which makes this branch of medicine forensic. The process begins and ends with the pathologist who is the autopsy surgeon.

For Marilyn Monroe, as for so many other celebrity deaths, this surgeon was Deputy Medical Examiner Thomas T. Noguchi MD--her final physician.

Nothing externally told why she died. Dr. Noguchi and I searched her entire body surface and orifices with magnifying glasses to look for any traces of needle injections. There was none. He then took smears from her genitals, anus, rectum and mouth which, under microscopic examination, would disclose if there had been any sexual activity.

He then began dissection. I will not describe the surgery in detail.

Since the autopsy revealed no apparent cause of death, a lethal drug dose became suspect. If this were the case it would be revealed by the laboratory analyses of the various specimens taken from the body. These specimens included organs, brain, blood, urine, smears of genital, anal, and oral areas, stomach contents.

The results of the blood analysis were conclusive. Death was caused by a massive amount of Nembutal, a barbiturate which may be prescribed for such symptoms as nervous disorders and sleeplessness. The blood sample also revealed a non-fatal level of chloral hydrate. This is the knock-out drug popularly referred to as a "Mickey Finn." It is infrequently prescribed for insomnia.

The question then is how did the lethal dose of the barbiturate get into the system. There are three main possibilities: orally, by injection and through the large intestine (colon). Finding the answer to this question was made extremely difficult because of a very strange circumstance: the disappearance of much of the specimen materials that had be submitted for examination. The stomach contents, the organ samples, the smear material
somehow all vanished! I know of no other such instances,


There were, however, two examinations that could be and were made: tests of the blood and the liver. The blood examination gave us the cause of the death-- the Nembutal, The liver examination provides an indication of the means by which it was administered. The liver contained a level of 13% of Nembutal and this is very significant. It is in the liver that the drug is detoxified (broken down into harmless compounds). For the liver to have so high a barbiturate reading means that the drug was slowly absorbed over a substantial period of time before death occurred.

So now we may assemble the pieces of this puzzle to reconstruct what happened.

1. It is unlikely that Miss Monroe swallowed a large amount of Nembutal capsules without leaving any traces of the drug in her stomach or duodenum (first part of small intestine into which the stomach empties). Even though the stomach contents disappeared and were thus not available for examination, we can conclude this from the fact that, had she taken so many capsules orally, the yellow coloring of the capsules (from which come the street name "yellow jackets") there should have been yellow dye stains in the stomach or duodenum. There were no such stains.

2. Miss Monroe lived long enough to accumulate 13% Nembutal in the liver where detoxification stops at death. This means she was gradually absorbing the drug for a prolonged time before death,

3. Nembutal is not excreted by passing through the large intestine (colon).

4. She was not killed by a hypodermic injection for 2 reasons: one, there were no needle marks on her body; two, had she died from lethal injection, death would have incurred promptly, before any liver metabolism could have taken place.

5. From the above, two possible ways for the Nembutal to have killed her are eliminated. Only the third remains: absorption from the large intestine. Nembutal is intestinally absorbable. Indeed, it is packaged as a rectal suppository for physicians to use when a patient is unable to swallow. However the blood and liver readings were far too high to support a suppository as the Nembutal transmitting agent But Nembutal readily dissolves in water.

These facts lead to a scenario of what really happened:

Marilyn Monroe took or was given chloral hydrate to render her unconscious. Someone dissolved Nembutal in water by breaking open 30 or more capsules. That person then administered the Nembutal loaded solution by enema to Miss Monroe using an ordinary fountain syringe or enema bag. As the drug was slowly absorbed, the tissues of the large intestine reacted to the trauma of exposure to the poisonous substance by an inflammatory response producing congestion and a marked purple color. That congestion and purple color were in evidence when the body was opened at the autopsy. Never regaining consciousness, Marilyn Monroe died,

It must be concluded from the medical evidence alone that Marilyn Monroe was killed by person(s) unknown.

The administering of the Nembutal by enema would also provide a plausible explanation for a puzzling event recounted by Anthony Summers in his book "Goddess" (by far the best investigative Monroe reportage). He relates that Eunice Murray, the live-in housekeeper, admits to operating the washing machine at midnight, while her employer was lying dead in her room. Mrs. Murray never explained this peculiar activity. Does it not seem likely, in view of the other evidence, that some enema fluid and fetal matter escaped soiling the bed sheet?

Ancient Rome provides a historical precedent for death-by-enema theory. Suetonius reports that the Emperor Claudius was murdered by his wife who gave him poison in an enema.


The Greenson Interview

In 1962 I was an Associate Clinical Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the Medical School of the University of Southern California (Clinical means part-time and unpaid.) Through attending lectures and seminars, I was acquainted with Ralph Greenson MD who was Marilyn Monroe's psychiatrist.

(I pause to say something about Dr. Greenson. Indisputably, he was among the outstanding psychiatrists of this century. His writings and teaching deservedly earned admiration and respect internationally. His brilliance and intuitive understanding of psychology made him a very successful practitioner of the most difficult of healing arts. Especially unyielding was his adherence to high ethical standards to protect and safeguard his patients. Although a Freudian psychoanalyst, he varied from orthodoxy when he thought it helped his patient.)

Dr. Theodore J. Curphey, Chief Medical Examiner-Coroner was aware that I knew Dr. Greenson. Soon after the Monroe autopsy, Ted (we were long-standing friends) informally asked me to interview Dr. Greenson on the suicide question.

Dr. Greenson agreed to see me on the condition that I would promise not to disclose to anyone what was said or heard in the interview. I gave him that promise. He said that I could quote his opinion that Miss Monroe did not commit suicide, but nothing more. (After having remained silent for 30 years I was released from my promise under circumstances described at the end of this document and so can relate the material that follows.) Dr. Greenson said that many in his profession would make such diagnoses about Monroe as obsessive-compulsive, manic depressive, or schizoid but these were just labels that did not help in understanding her neurotic difficulties. He made the point that few, if any, women were subjected to pressures and stress of being viewed by all as the world's greatest sex object, that some of her abnormal behavior was reactive defenses. But he thought that she was well on the path to overcoming her problems and realizing her tremendous potential.

However, he wanted me to understand that the greatest catastrophe that could befall a psychiatrist was to have a patient commit suicide. That would be the ultimate therapeutic failure. So his opinion that she did not kill herself would be considered biased by self-interest and lack objectivity.
Accordingly, he would let me hear two tapes she had made for him in her home. From her own words I could thaw my conclusions concerning the likelihood of suicide.

The Tapes

I will not reproduce here the transcription of what I remember Miss Monroe said in her tapes. (The transcription in full is attached. The transcription may be edited by someone other than me to remove possible offensive material. However I will make certain the editing does not distort or change the meaning of what she said.)

I summarize the tapes as follows:

I. She explains that she has recorded her free associating (saying whatever comes into her mind; a necessary technique used in psychoanalytic therapy) at home because she could not do it in office sessions. She hoped this would assist in her treatment. And she believes that she has discovered a means of overcoming the resistance which patients have in being unable to comply with the psychiatrist's request to free associate because the mind becomes a blank.

2. She tells how she plans to become the highest paid actress in Hollywood so that she can finance everything that she wants to do.

3. She says that she aspires to do Shakespeare and that she will pay Lee [Strasberg] to coach her in Shakespeare as his only student for one year.

4. Laurence Olivier, she says, had agreed to polish her Shakespearean training after Strasberg finished, and she would pay him whatever he asked

5. She says she would pay Dr. Greenson to be his only patient while she was undergoing the instruction in Shakespeare.

6. She says that when she is ready she would produce and act in all of the Shakespeare plays that she would put in film under the rubric Marilyn Monroe Shakespeare Festival.

7. For those many writers who maintain that she was going to blow the whistle on J. F. Kennedy about their sexual relationship, she shoots down such speculation when she expresses utmost admiration for the President and explicitly says she would never embarrass him.

8. Her remarks disprove those who claim that she killed herself because Robert Kennedy broke off their relationship because it was she who broke it off.

9. She strongly assert that she wanted to rid herself of Eunice Murray, her housekeeper, and requested Dr. Greenson's assistance in so doing.

10. She says that she never had an orgasm before becoming Dr. Greenson's patient but that he had cured her of that infirmity for which was she was forever grateful. (I add, so much for author Spoto and his ilk who falsely and maliciously claim that Dr. Greenson was implicated in killing her.)

After hearing these tapes, any reasonable person would have to conclude that Marilyn Monroe did not kill herself. She had too many plans to fulfill, too much to live for, and had, at last, found the physical satisfaction that she so missed for all of her life.

I am certain that Dr. Greenson destroyed these tapes. And he died some years ago. I am now the only living person who has heard them. But there is some verification that Miss Monroe did make these tapes. Again, Anthony Summers, that matchless reporter, puts in his book an item about them. Another investigative reporter, Seymore Hersh, told me he can verify, a somewhat "kinky" tape item.

Conclusions

Marilyn Monroe bears the stigma of suicide. That is wrong and must be corrected. The medical evidence here assembled is sufficient to show that she was a homicide victim. However, I would propose that her own body give definite proof, if possible, of this conviction. Because she is interred in a water impenetrable crypt, well off the ground, there is a good chance that the large intestine is sufficiently preserved to enable modern technology to determine the presence of a barbiturate. Dr. Noguchi has volunteered to do the re-autopsy without cost provided that independent and competent witness is present.

I have, in the past, successfully petitioned the Superior Court for exhumation orders in many other cases. For this case, I will do all the necessary court and paper work without fee for which the District Attorney or Attorney General can deputize me. The Chief Medical Examiner-Coroner, the District Attorney, the Attorney General have standing to so petition. Under these circumstances, there are legal and moral requirements to open an investigation of Marilyn Monroe's death and to perform a re-autopsy.

Personal Note

I kept my promise to Dr. Greenson to respect the confidentiality of his interview with me and the contents of Miss Monroe's tapes, I kept that promise in spite of incredible pressures from reporters, authors, and official investigators to relate this information. It is only after Donald Spoto, Marvin Bergman and others accused Dr. Greenson of being responsible in some way for causing Marilyn Monroe's death that I approached Dr. Greenson's widow to ask for a release from my promise to her husband. She wishes to do whatever is possible to clear his name and granted my request.

John W. Miner


---

Miner's Transcript of Monroe Tapes

Dear Doctor:

You have given me everything. Because of you I can now feel what I never felt before. She comes by herself and with somebody else. So now I am a whole woman (pun intended — like Shakespeare). So now I have control-- control of myself--control of my life.

What can I give you. Not money. I know that from me that means nothing to you. Not my body. I know your professional ethics and faithfulness to your wonderful wife make that impossible. What I am going to give you is my idea that will revolutionize psychoanalysis.

Isn't it true that the key to analysis is free association. Marilyn Monroe associates. You, my doctor, by understanding and interpretation of what goes on in my mind get to my unconscious which makes it possible for you to treat my neuroses and for me to overcome them. But when you tell me to relax and say whatever I am thinking, I blank out and have nothing to say; that's what you and Dr. Freud call resistance. So we talk about other things and I answer your questions as best I can. You are the only person in the world I have never told a lie to and never will.

Oh yes, dreams. I know they are important. But you want me to free associate about the dream elements. I have the same blanking out. More resistance for you and Dr. Freud to complain about.

I read his "Introductory Lectures," God, what a genius. He makes it so understandable. And he is so right. Didn't he say himself that Shakespeare and Dostoievski had a better understanding of psychology than all the scientists put together. Damn it, they do.

You told me to read Molly Bloom's mental meanderings (I can use words, can't I) to get a feeling for free association. It was when I did that I got my great idea.

As I read it something bothered me. Here is Joyce writing what a woman thinks to herself . Can he, does he really know her innermost thoughts. But after I read the whole book, I could better understand that Joyce is an artist who could penetrate the souls of people, male or female. It really doesn't matter that Joyce doesn't have ... or never felt a menstrual cramp. Wait a minute. As you must have guessed I am free associating and you are going to hear a lot of bad language. Because of my respect for you, I've never been able to say the words I'm really thinking when we are in session. But now I am going to say whatever I think, no matter what it is.

I can do that because of my idea which, if you'll be patient, I'll tell you about. That's funny. I ask you to be patient, but I am your patient. Yet to be patient and to be a patient makes a kind of Shakespearean sense, doesn't it

Back to Joyce. To me Leopold Bloom is a central character. He is the despised Irish Jew, married to an Irish Catholic woman. It is through them Joyce develops much of what he wants to say. Do you agree that the scene where Bloom is looking at the little girl on the swing is the most erotic in the book?

What is a Jew. In my business I have met and ... more Jews that I can count, and boy have I been screwed by some of them.

There are those who, I suppose, look Jewish but so do Arabs; there are others who are more blond and blue-eyed than Hitler ever was. And some in between that you can't tell if they are Jewish or not.

How do you think Hitler knew who were Jews to be killed. Couldn't be by looks alone. I have met too many German Jews who sure could be Hitler's Aryans by their looks.

I couldn't tell if you're Jewish by looking at you. Same with women.

Keep getting sidetracked. Well, that's what free association is.

OK, my idea! To start with there is the doctor and the patient. I don't like the word, analysand. It makes it seem like treating a sick mind is different from treating a sick body. However, you and Dr. Freud say the mind is part of the body. That makes the person getting treated a patient.

I'll bet Gertrude Stein would say a patient is a patient, is a patient. See, free association can be fun.

Anyway, you are in his office and the Doctor says I want you to say whatever you are thinking no matter what it is. And you can't think of a damn thing. How many times after a session I would go home and cry because I thought it was my fault.

While reading Molly's blathering, the IDEA came to me. Get a tape recorder. Put a tape in. Turn it on. Say whatever you are thinking like I am doing now. It's really easy. I'm lying on my bed wearing only a brassiere. If I want to go to the refrig or the bathroom, push the stop button and begin again when I want to.

And I just free associate. No problem. You get the idea, don't you. Patient can't do it in Doctor's office. Patient is at home with tape recorder. Patient free associates sans difficulty. Patient sends tape to Doctor. After he listens to it, Patient comes in for a session. He asks her questions about it, interprets it. Patient gets treated. Oh yes, she can put her dreams on the tape too — right when she has them. You know how I would forget what I dreamed or even if I dreamt at all.

Dr. Freud said dreams are the via regia to the unconscious and so I'll tell you my dreams on tape.

OK, Dr. Greenson. You are the greatest psychiatrist in the world. You tell me. Has Marilyn Monroe invented an important way to make psychoanalysis work better. After you listen to my tapes and use them to treat me, you could publish a paper in a scientific journal, Wouldn't that be sensational. I don't want any credit. I don't want to be identified in your paper. It's my present to you. I'll never tell anybody about it. You will be the first to let your profession know how to lick resistance. Maybe you could patent the idea and license it to your colleagues. Ask Micky.

You are the only person who will ever know the most private, the most secret thought of Marilyn Monroe. I have absolute confidence and trust you will never reveal to a living soul what I say to you.

What I told you is true when I first became your patient. I had never had an orgasm. I well remember you said an orgasm happens in the mind, not the genitals. ...

It doesn't bother me, but this damn free association could drive somebody crazy. Oh, oh, crazy makes me think about my mother. I am not going to free associate about her right now. Let me finish my thoughts about orgasms.

You said there was an obstacle in my mind that prevented me from having an orgasm; that it was something that happened early in my life about which I felt so guilty that I did not deserve to have the greatest pleasure there is; that it had to do with something sexual that was very wrong, but my getting pleasure from it caused my guilt That it was buried in my unconscious. Through analysis we would bring it to my conscious mind where we could get to the guilt and free me to be orgasmic. Well, we sure worked it and got nowhere. I'd go home and cry and vomit from the frustration. Then you said for the orgasm problem we'll try a different approach. That you would tell me how to stimulate myself, that when I did exactly what you told me to do I would have an orgasm and that after I did it to myself and felt what it was, I would have orgasms with lovers. What a difference a word makes. You said I would, not I could.

Bless you, Doctor. What you say is gospel to me. By now I've had lots of orgasms. Not only one, but 2 and 3 with a man who takes his time.

I never cried so hard as I did after my first orgasm. It was because of the years I had ...never had an orgasm.

What wasted years. How can I describe to you, a man, what an orgasm feels like to a woman. I'll try.

Think of a light fixture with a rheostat control. As you slowly turn it on, the bulb begins to get bright, then brighter and brighter and finally in a blinding flash is fully lit. As you turn it off it gradually becomes dimmer and at last goes out.

It is so good ... Doctor, I worship you.

I have a dream for you. I dreamt that I was sitting on Clark Gable's lap with his arms around me. He said: "They want me to do a "Gone With the Wind" sequel. Maybe I will if you will be my Scarlett." I woke up crying.

They called him King and God knows he was that. What respect and deference he had from the actors and crew, even that ... Huston. Some day I hope I'll be treated like that. He was Mr. Gable to everybody on the set, but he made me call him Clark.

He had such concern for the animals. Even though there were Humane Society inspectors all over the place, he kept ordering that nobody hurt the horses. Ironical, it was a horse that hurt him. I was told after he was dragged and the horse calmed down, he stroked his muzzle and gave him a piece of sugar.

He was so nice to me and I didn't deserve it. I was having problems with Arthur and being sick and I held up the shooting a lot. Clark protected me from Huston who kept giving me a bad time.

In the kissing scenes, I kissed him with real affection. I didn't want to go to bed with him, but I wanted him to know how much I liked and appreciated him.

He told me he had been a hunter for a long time, but he had decided not to kill animals. He said if he had children, he would teach them to hunt with a camera instead of a gun.

When I came back from a day off the set, he patted my ass and told me if I didn't behave myself, he would give me a good spanking. I looked him in the eye and said: " Don't tempt me," He burst out laughing so hard he was tearing

Because of his performance I've seen "Gone With the Wind's over and over again. He was perfect.

It makes me so mad I could scream. Those Academy ... didn't award him the Oscar. He should have won hands down.

All right that was a long time ago. I must have been about 13. I have never seen a man who was as romantic as he was in that picture.

It was different when I got to know him. Then I wanted him to be my father. I wouldn't care if he spanked me as long as he made up for it by hugging me and telling me I was Daddy's little girl and he loved me. Of course that's fantasy.

Ever since you let me be in your home and meet your family, I've thought about how it would be if I were your daughter instead of your patient. I know you couldn't do it while I'm your patient, but after you cure me, maybe you could adopt me. Then I'd have the father I've always wanted and your wife whom I adore would be my mother, and your children, brothers and sisters.

No, Doctor, I won't push it. But it's beautiful to think about it I guess you can tell I'm crying, I'll stop now for a little bit.

When Clark Gable died, I cried for 2 days straight. I couldn't eat or sleep. It was some comfort to remember I'd make him laugh like that. Is there a God. He must be cruel for not letting Clark live to teach his son to hunt with a camera.

Speaking of Oscars, I would win overwhelmingly if the Academy gave an Oscar for faking orgasms. I have done some of my best acting convincing my partners I was in the throes of ecstasy. If he were alive I'd have Johnny Hyde be the presenter. ...

Johnny Hyde was special. He wasn't a lot to look at. A little shrimp. Little shrimp, is that redundant or tautological. I always get them mixed up. Anyway, he only came up to my chin.

Johnny was a cocky character. There was no better agent in the business. The studio bosses and casting directors respected him. His word was gold. You didn't need any damned lawyers when he made a deal.

... how that man took care of me. He divorced his wife and bought a house for us to live in, bought my clothes, paid my hairdresser and cosmetic bills and medical expenses. He was my agent and got me better parts and more money than I had before.

Funny though. He always took his agent fee. Said it kept me professional and then he'd turn around and spend a fortune on me.

There was a lot of talk that he did all this to get me to marry him. And I probably would have if he wanted me to. But the truth is he thought marriage would hurt my career. He said if I did what he told me, he'd make me a big star...

I was everything to him: wife, mother, sister, daughter, mistress. Nobody will or could love me as much as Johnny H. I loved the little guy, but I was never in love with him. I'd do anything he wanted and I've only skimmed the surface in what I've said. But I just couldn't have the kind of love for him that he had for me.

We both knew he had a bad heart. His doctor told him if he wanted to stay alive, he should stop seeing me and retire from his work, He didn't and died suddenly before he could keep his promise to put me in his will. C'est la vie.

The talk went around that his relationship with me killed Johnny. They are wasting their time trying to make me feel guilty. I gave Johnny the greatest happiness he ever had. He wouldn't have traded a day of it for a year of life.

[Miner notes: Topic: "Taxicab Drivers". Here is what I remember]

(Monroe rhetorically asks Greenson how the most famous woman is the world could go to a strange man and ask him a question. She answers by saying — Use a taxicab driver. She got the idea from reading about or hearing of a Caliph or Sultan who went out incognito among his people to find out what they thought of him. She wanted to take a poll. So she disguised herself with a brunette wig--no make up-- horn rimmed glasses, an amorphous garment and gave the driver $10 to answer the question: Name the woman you would most want to sleep with. She intended a jury of 12, but only asked 9. Six said Marilyn Monroe. She gave the responses of the other 3, but I don't remember them. It excited her that they did not know her identity.)



There's a radio ... trying to restart a fire under the old so called Crawford-Monroe feud. OK, she said some mean things about me a while back. What do I care. I don't know why she did. Crawford and I started out friendly. As always, Shakespeare said it best; "He that takes from me my good name robs me of that which not enriches him and make me poor indeed." No, Doctor, I did not look it up. I've memorized a lot of Shakespeare. That reminds me of Prince and the Showgirl.

Olivier came into my dressing room to give me hell for screwing up. I soothed him by telling him I thought his Hamlet was one of the greatest films ever made. You know he won an Oscar for it

But the Prince was a real .... He was superficial -- no, that's not the word — supercilious, arrogant, a snob, conceited. Maybe a little bit anti-Semitic in the sense of some of my best friends are Jews. But, damn him, a great, great actor.

At a party he told a couple of Jewish jokes. Arthur says his Yiddish accent was perfect. I told him Lee Strasberg said I had Shakespeare in me. What did he think. Olivier said, Marilyn, if you worked with Lee harder than you ever worked and get the basics, come to me and I'll help you do it. Here's what you're in for. And Olivier recited Shakespeare for 2 hours. Everything from Hamlet to Shylock. It was magic. I've never heard anything so magnificent. He ended with: "She should have died hereafter. There would have for such a word. Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in this petty pace from day to day to the last syllable of recorded time. And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle. Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Olivier said: "That says it all," smiled and left. I sat and cried with joy for being so privileged.

Oh yes, Crawford....

We went to Joan's bedroom ... Crawford had a gigantic orgasm and shrieked like a maniac. Credit Natasha. She could teach more than acting.

Next time I saw Crawford she wanted another round. I told her straight out I didn't much enjoy doing it with a woman. After I turned her down, she became spiteful. An English poet best describes it: hath no rage like love to hatred turned; and hell hath no fury like a woman scorned � most people wrongly credit that to Shakespeare. William Congreve is the author. That's me, Marilyn Monroe, the classical scholar.

About enemas. You and Dr. Freud say every child goes through an anal development stage when the child first gets to neural control of the anal sphincters. Dr. Freud says the sexual and the excremental are always mixed together. You told me that childhood experiences during the anal development stage can cause a fixation which play a part in later sexual development. Maybe that happened to me and we'll get at it in analysis. You know I have a very poor memory of my early childhood... I began remembering a little bit about the enemas I had as a child. They were what you and Dr. Freud call repressed memories. I'll work on it and give you another tape.

But Doctor, I don't understand this big taboo about enemas. Most of the actresses I know use them, even some who won't admit it.

Mae West told me she is given an enema every day and she has at least one orgasm a day... Mae says her enemas and orgasms will keep her young until she is 100. I hope she makes it. A nice lady even though she turned down making a picture with me. That just shows how smart she is.

Peter Lawford...says the Queen and noblewomen of the court of Louis XIV were given frequent enemas with by special servants called apothecaries. The purpose was to give them peaches and cream complexions... Something about intestinal toxins getting into the blood. So there you are. Those ladies were doing the intelligent thing. ...

Yes, I enjoy enemas, so what!

But lets get to something serious Doctor, I want you to help me get rid of Murray. While she was giving me an enema last night I was thinking to myself Lady, even though you're very good at this, you've got to go. But how? I can't flat out fire her. Next thing would be a book "Secrets of Marilyn Monroe by her Housekeeper." She'd make a fortune spilling what she knows and she knows too damn much.

How about this- You tell her you have a seriously sick and suicidal patient or locate one somehow. That the patient is in urgent need of Murray's services. I graciously with tears in my eyes agree to part with her. I'll give her a substantial severance bonus, but she'll have to sign a contract not to write or give interviews about me. Ask Micky if a contract like that can be made to stick. -

Doctor, the fact is we just plain don't like each other. I can't put up with her insolence and disregard for anything I ask her to do. If you have a better idea please let me know what it is.

Another problem that is bothering me. A...named Slatzer is running around saying awful lies about being my husband and what I am like in bed. I asked Frank Sinatra what I could do. He said, Marilyn baby, ignore it. If you take on one of these ... you make him bigger and yourself smaller. I suppose if anyone knows Frank should. He is a man at the top of his profession and is a fine actor as well. (You know, he got an Oscar for "From Here to Eternity"). He has helped more people anonymously than anybody else. And the miserable ... press smears him with lies about his being involved with the Mafia and gangsters. And Frank just takes it.

What a wonderful friend he is to me. I love Frank and he loves me. It is not the marrying kind of love. It is better because marriage can't destroy it. How well I know. Marriage destroyed my relationship with two wonderful men.

Joe D. loves Marilyn Monroe and always will. I love him and always will. But Joe couldn't stay married to Marilyn Monroe, the famous movie star. Joe has an image in his stubborn Italian head of a traditional Italian wife. She would have to be faithful, do what he tells her, devote all of herself to him. Doctor, you know that's not me. There is no way I could stop being Marilyn Monroe and become someone else to save our marriage. It didn't take too long before we both realized that and ended our marriage. But we didn't end our love for each other. Any time I need him, Joe is there. I couldn't have a better friend.

It's different with Arthur. Marrying him was my mistake, not his. He couldn't give me the attention, warmth and affection I need. It's not in his nature. Arthur never credited me with much intelligence. He couldn't share his intellectual life with me. As bed partners we were so-so. He was not that much interested. You know I think his little Jewish father had more genuine affection for me than Arthur did.

I loved the little Jew and his quaint Jewishness. But the Jewish religion never got to me ... Maybe he is a fine creative writer, I suppose so.

Arthur didn't know film and how to write for it. Misfits was not a great film because it wasn't a great script .Gable, Monroe, Clift, Wallach, Huston. What more could you ask. I'll tell you. There has to be a story as good as the talent who play it. If you put Jesus Christ in a bad script it would be a flop. You know why those religious theme pictures like Ben Hur and the Ten Commandments are so successful. Because the Bible is a ... good script.

I stood naked in front of my full length mirrors for a long time yesterday. I was all made up with my hair done. What did I see. My breasts are beginning to sag a bit. ... My waist isn't bad. My ass is what it should be, the best there is. Legs, knees and ankles still shapely. And my feet are not too big. OK, Marilyn, you have it all there. It is decision time.

If I have to do any more pictures for those ... at Fox, I am going to be the highest paid actress in Hollywood, double what they pay Taylor, and a piece of the gross. I'll choose the script, director and cast. The pictures will be box office hits. I'll put part of the millions I make in no-risk investments. The rest I'll use to finance my plan.

I'll take a year of day and night study of Shakespeare with Lee Strasberg. I'll pay him to work only with me. He said I could do Shakespeare. I'll make him prove it. That will give me the basics Olivier wanted. Then I'll go to Olivier for the help he promised. And I'll pay whatever he wants.

Then I'll produce and act in the Marilyn Monroe Shakespeare Film Festival which will put his major plays on film. I'll need you to keep me together for a year or more. I'll pay you to be your only patient.

Oh, I made you another present. I have thrown all my ... pills in the toilet. You see how serious I am about this.

I've read all of Shakespeare and practiced a lot of lines. I won't have to worry about the scripts. I'll have the greatest script writer who ever lived working for me and I don't have to pay him.

Oh, Monroe will have her hand in. I am going to do Juliet first. Don't laugh. What with what make-up, costume and camera can do, my acting will create a Juliet who is 14, an innocent virgin, but whose budding womanhood is fantastically sexy.

I've some wonderful ideas for Lady Macbeth and Queen Gertrude. I feel certain I'll win an Oscar for one or more of my Shakespearean women.

Yes, Doctor, this is what I am going to do. I owe it to you, Doctor, that I can.

Marilyn Monroe is a soldier. Her Commander in Chief is the greatest and most powerful man in the world The first duty of a soldier is to obey her Commander in Chief. He says "do this." You do this. He says "do that." You do that.

This man is going to change our country. No child will go hungry. No person will sleep in the street and get his meals from garbage cans. People who can't afford it will get good medical care. Industrial products will be the best in the world. No, I'm not talking Utopia -- that's an illusion, but he will transform America today like FDR did in the 30's. You don't think you're hearing me do you. You're right. And he'll do for the world what he'll do for America — transform it for the better. I tell you, Doctor, when he has finished his achievements he will take his place with Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and FDR as one of our greatest Presidents.

I'm glad he has Bobby. It's like the Navy. The President is the Captain and Bobby is his Executive Officer. Bobby would do absolutely anything for his brother. And so would I.

I'll never embarrass him. As long as I have memory I have John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

But Bobby, Doctor, what should I do about Bobby. As you see there is no room in my life for him. I guess I don't have the courage to face up to it and hurt him. I want someone else to tell him its over. I tried to get the President to do it, but I couldn't reach him. Now I'm glad I couldn't. He is too important to ask. You know when I sang Happy Birthday for him ... Maybe I should stop being a coward and tell him myself. But because I know how much he'll be hurt I don't have the strength to hurt him.

I think what's happened to Bobby is that he has stopped having good sex with his wife for some time. ... Well when he starts having sex with the body all men want, his Catholic morality has to find a way to justify cheating on his wife. So love becomes his excuse. And if you love enough, you can't help it and you can't be blamed. All right, Doctor, that's Marilyn Monroe's analysis of Bobby's love for me. And now I understand it for what it is, I'm not going to have any problem handling it myself . What is amazing is I solved my problem just through the free associating I did for you. ...

Well, that's something for you to sleep on, Doctor.

Good Night.
mels
Interesting facts to discuss regarding Miner's sayings:

1. Miner's autopsy conclusions.

QUOTE
So now we may assemble the pieces of this puzzle to reconstruct what happened.

1. It is unlikely that Miss Monroe swallowed a large amount of Nembutal capsules without leaving any traces of the drug in her stomach or duodenum (first part of small intestine into which the stomach empties). Even though the stomach contents disappeared and were thus not available for examination, we can conclude this from the fact that, had she taken so many capsules orally, the yellow coloring of the capsules (from which come the street name "yellow jackets") there should have been yellow dye stains in the stomach or duodenum. There were no such stains.

2. Miss Monroe lived long enough to accumulate 13% Nembutal in the liver where detoxification stops at death. This means she was gradually absorbing the drug for a prolonged time before death,

3. Nembutal is not excreted by passing through the large intestine (colon).

4. She was not killed by a hypodermic injection for 2 reasons: one, there were no needle marks on her body; two, had she died from lethal injection, death would have incurred promptly, before any liver metabolism could have taken place.

5. From the above, two possible ways for the Nembutal to have killed her are eliminated. Only the third remains: absorption from the large intestine. Nembutal is intestinally absorbable. Indeed, it is packaged as a rectal suppository for physicians to use when a patient is unable to swallow. However the blood and liver readings were far too high to support a suppository as the Nembutal transmitting agent But Nembutal readily dissolves in water.

These facts lead to a scenario of what really happened:

Marilyn Monroe took or was given chloral hydrate to render her unconscious. Someone dissolved Nembutal in water by breaking open 30 or more capsules. That person then administered the Nembutal loaded solution by enema to Miss Monroe using an ordinary fountain syringe or enema bag. As the drug was slowly absorbed, the tissues of the large intestine reacted to the trauma of exposure to the poisonous substance by an inflammatory response producing congestion and a marked purple color. That congestion and purple color were in evidence when the body was opened at the autopsy. Never regaining consciousness, Marilyn Monroe died,

It must be concluded from the medical evidence alone that Marilyn Monroe was killed by person(s) unknown.


I have to strongly disagree with Miner on point 1 : it has been confirmed by many many professionnals that the Nembutal capsules do not always leave a yellow trail. Discrediting oral overdose by this simple fact isn't something acceptable.

Even if an enema of any kind was the cause of Marilyn's death, I don't see how it is a proof of a murder. I believe that there are other, faster and easier ways to murder someone than an enema !

2. Miner's request to exhume the body and perform a new autopsy.

QUOTE
Marilyn Monroe bears the stigma of suicide. That is wrong and must be corrected. The medical evidence here assembled is sufficient to show that she was a homicide victim. However, I would propose that her own body give definite proof, if possible, of this conviction. Because she is interred in a water impenetrable crypt, well off the ground, there is a good chance that the large intestine is sufficiently preserved to enable modern technology to determine the presence of a barbiturate. Dr. Noguchi has volunteered to do the re-autopsy without cost provided that independent and competent witness is present.

I have, in the past, successfully petitioned the Superior Court for exhumation orders in many other cases. For this case, I will do all the necessary court and paper work without fee for which the District Attorney or Attorney General can deputize me. The Chief Medical Examiner-Coroner, the District Attorney, the Attorney General have standing to so petition. Under these circumstances, there are legal and moral requirements to open an investigation of Marilyn Monroe's death and to perform a re-autopsy.


Now that's kind of a shocker. I'm surprised this request hasn't created a HUGE reaction in the Marilyn community. As much as I'd love to know for sure what happened the night of Marilyn's death, I would like her to rest in peace. I would hate it if they exhumed her body, even for the sake of the truth, I can't help but perceive this as a violation of her privacy, the only one she ever really had as Marilyn Monroe.
mels
Debunking (or not) the transcript.
Interesting subjects to discuss :

1. Marilyn's sayings

1. Greenson and adoption

QUOTE
Ever since you let me be in your home and meet your family, I've thought about how it would be if I were your daughter instead of your patient. I know you couldn't do it while I'm your patient, but after you cure me, maybe you could adopt me. Then I'd have the father I've always wanted and your wife whom I adore would be my mother, and your children, brothers and sisters.

No, Doctor, I won't push it. But it's beautiful to think about it I guess you can tell I'm crying, I'll stop now for a little bit.


I know Marilyn was looking for a father figure, and had been for her whole life. She failed with her husbands, and also admits on the tapes that she would have liked Gable to be such a figure for her. And then she asks Greenson to adopt her.
Would it be fair to assume that Marilyn was at the point where she couldn't distance herself from her doctor and realize that their relationship was strictly professional ?

That said, Greenson never helped, by making her a part of the family, which has been reported several times by several authors AND by Greenson's daughter.

2. About Johnny Hide
QUOTE
Speaking of Oscars, I would win overwhelmingly if the Academy gave an Oscar for faking orgasms. I have done some of my best acting convincing my partners I was in the throes of ecstasy. If he were alive I'd have Johnny Hyde be the presenter. ...

Johnny Hyde was special. He wasn't a lot to look at. A little shrimp. Little shrimp, is that redundant or tautological. I always get them mixed up. Anyway, he only came up to my chin.

Johnny was a cocky character. There was no better agent in the business. The studio bosses and casting directors respected him. His word was gold. You didn't need any damned lawyers when he made a deal.

... how that man took care of me. He divorced his wife and bought a house for us to live in, bought my clothes, paid my hairdresser and cosmetic bills and medical expenses. He was my agent and got me better parts and more money than I had before.

Funny though. He always took his agent fee. Said it kept me professional and then he'd turn around and spend a fortune on me.

There was a lot of talk that he did all this to get me to marry him. And I probably would have if he wanted me to. But the truth is he thought marriage would hurt my career. He said if I did what he told me, he'd make me a big star...

I was everything to him: wife, mother, sister, daughter, mistress. Nobody will or could love me as much as Johnny H. I loved the little guy, but I was never in love with him. I'd do anything he wanted and I've only skimmed the surface in what I've said. But I just couldn't have the kind of love for him that he had for me.

We both knew he had a bad heart. His doctor told him if he wanted to stay alive, he should stop seeing me and retire from his work, He didn't and died suddenly before he could keep his promise to put me in his will. C'est la vie.

The talk went around that his relationship with me killed Johnny. They are wasting their time trying to make me feel guilty. I gave Johnny the greatest happiness he ever had. He wouldn't have traded a day of it for a year of life.


All accounts of Marilyn's and Hyde's relationship agree on the fact that Hyde repeatedly asked Marilyn to marry him and that she always refused.
Now we read the contrary. Is it possible that this whole Hyde mention is a fake, or is Marilyn changing her truths once more ? Or were the journalists/novelists wrong when they stated that Marilyn always refused to marry him?

Would Marilyn have agreed to marry Hyde like she claims she would have?

3. Monroe and Crawford were sexually involved once

QUOTE
Oh yes, Crawford....

We went to Joan's bedroom ... Crawford had a gigantic orgasm and shrieked like a maniac. Credit Natasha. She could teach more than acting.

Next time I saw Crawford she wanted another round. I told her straight out I didn't much enjoy doing it with a woman. After I turned her down, she became spiteful. An English poet best describes it: hath no rage like love to hatred turned; and hell hath no fury like a woman scorned � most people wrongly credit that to Shakespeare. William Congreve is the author. That's me, Marilyn Monroe, the classical scholar.


Looking for sensionalism, or is this story really true ?

4. Getting rid of Murray

QUOTE
But lets get to something serious Doctor, I want you to help me get rid of Murray. While she was giving me an enema last night I was thinking to myself Lady, even though you're very good at this, you've got to go. But how? I can't flat out fire her. Next thing would be a book "Secrets of Marilyn Monroe by her Housekeeper." She'd make a fortune spilling what she knows and she knows too damn much.

How about this- You tell her you have a seriously sick and suicidal patient or locate one somehow. That the patient is in urgent need of Murray's services. I graciously with tears in my eyes agree to part with her. I'll give her a substantial severance bonus, but she'll have to sign a contract not to write or give interviews about me. Ask Micky if a contract like that can be made to stick. -

Doctor, the fact is we just plain don't like each other. I can't put up with her insolence and disregard for anything I ask her to do. If you have a better idea please let me know what it is.


Interesting read. I'm still not sure what to think about it !

5. How Slatzer enters (and exits) the game
QUOTE
Another problem that is bothering me. A...named Slatzer is running around saying awful lies about being my husband and what I am like in bed. I asked Frank Sinatra what I could do. He said, Marilyn baby, ignore it. If you take on one of these ... you make him bigger and yourself smaller. I suppose if anyone knows Frank should. He is a man at the top of his profession and is a fine actor as well. (You know, he got an Oscar for "From Here to Eternity"). He has helped more people anonymously than anybody else. And the miserable ... press smears him with lies about his being involved with the Mafia and gangsters. And Frank just takes it.


I'm glad to finally read something about Slatzer. What looks strange to me is that Slatzer first talked about his relationship with Marilyn in 1957. I'm not sure he did again before her death, so why bring the topic back in 1962 on her own, unless she had a good reason (such as articles published in that time period ?)

6. Professional Projects

QUOTE
If I have to do any more pictures for those ... at Fox, I am going to be the highest paid actress in Hollywood, double what they pay Taylor, and a piece of the gross. I'll choose the script, director and cast. The pictures will be box office hits. I'll put part of the millions I make in no-risk investments. The rest I'll use to finance my plan.

I'll take a year of day and night study of Shakespeare with Lee Strasberg. I'll pay him to work only with me. He said I could do Shakespeare. I'll make him prove it. That will give me the basics Olivier wanted. Then I'll go to Olivier for the help he promised. And I'll pay whatever he wants.

Then I'll produce and act in the Marilyn Monroe Shakespeare Film Festival which will put his major plays on film. I'll need you to keep me together for a year or more. I'll pay you to be your only patient.[...]

I've read all of Shakespeare and practiced a lot of lines. I won't have to worry about the scripts. I'll have the greatest script writer who ever lived working for me and I don't have to pay him.

Oh, Monroe will have her hand in. I am going to do Juliet first. Don't laugh. What with what make-up, costume and camera can do, my acting will create a Juliet who is 14, an innocent virgin, but whose budding womanhood is fantastically sexy.

I've some wonderful ideas for Lady Macbeth and Queen Gertrude. I feel certain I'll win an Oscar for one or more of my Shakespearean women.


If this is a true transcript, which for this part, I would really believe as genuine, I do think that Marilyn was delusional. In NO way these "projects" mean she would have done everything to make them happen, on the contrary they sound to me as desperate projects, something she knew would never happen.
Smaller projects, which, on the contrary, she could have led, such as decorating her house etc... are not mentionned, which sounds weird to me.

7. Getting rid of the pills addiction

QUOTE
Oh, I made you another present. I have thrown all my ... pills in the toilet. You see how serious I am about this.


If this is true, it confirms all sayings about how she and Greenson had been working hard in her last months to reduce her addiction to pills. Possible goals ? Regain some self assurance, beeing able to work again, and make people take her more seriously . Let's keep in mind that by then she was known for her pills and alcohol addictions.

8. Bobby Kennedy

QUOTE
But Bobby, Doctor, what should I do about Bobby. As you see there is no room in my life for him. I guess I don't have the courage to face up to it and hurt him. I want someone else to tell him its over. I tried to get the President to do it, but I couldn't reach him. Now I'm glad I couldn't. He is too important to ask. You know when I sang Happy Birthday for him ... Maybe I should stop being a coward and tell him myself. But because I know how much he'll be hurt I don't have the strength to hurt him.

I think what's happened to Bobby is that he has stopped having good sex with his wife for some time. ... Well when he starts having sex with the body all men want, his Catholic morality has to find a way to justify cheating on his wife. So love becomes his excuse. And if you love enough, you can't help it and you can't be blamed. All right, Doctor, that's Marilyn Monroe's analysis of Bobby's love for me. And now I understand it for what it is, I'm not going to have any problem handling it myself . What is amazing is I solved my problem just through the free associating I did for you. ...


Man, if this is true, we have been wrong ALL the way when thinking it was Bobby who was trying to get rid of Marilyn... This is definitely extremely interesting.

2. General questions and opinion about the transcript

Let's try to oppose opinions and/or facts and try to determine if the transcript is a real or not.

The transcript is a fake, here's why:

- Isn't the lenghy mention of the enemas very convenient for someone who wants to make of these tapes the proof that Marilyn didn't commit suicide?

- Same thing for Slatzer ? Isn't the mention of Robert Slatzer a bit too convenient here ? (though Slatzer could also preach for Miner's "church" since he was also defending the murder theory).

- Marilyn keeps saying how Greenson is amazing to her, that she wants him to adopt her etc... isn't it a bit convenient to have such a nice sayings for the person Miner wants to clean the reputation of?

The transcript isn't a fake, here's why:

- What would Miner gain from a fake transcript ? The man is 86 years old and has always claimed he had heard these tapes AND that he never thought Marilyn had committed suicide.

Either way, how can such a transcript prove that Marilyn was murdered, committed suicide... or was the victim of an accident?


Your turn smile1.gif
mels
I just read the interview again (I'm helping Chris for its translation) and something struck me as very very wrong...

QUOTE
Another problem that is bothering me. A...named Slatzer is running around saying awful lies about being my husband and what I am like in bed


So far I have only heard of one Slatzer interview re. Marilyn before her death, it was in the May 1957 issue of Confidential Magazine. He told TONS of things about Marilyn but never mentionned a wedding of any kind. I do believe that the wedding story hit the news several years after Marilyn's death. Am I wrong ?
N.u.r.v
could someone just sum that up. not going to read what someone just copied and pasted.
mels
QUOTE(N.u.r.v @ Aug 7 2005, 05:48 AM)
could someone just sum that up. not going to read what someone just copied and pasted.
[snapback]85705[/snapback]


I'm not sure what you mean by "not going to read what someone just copied and pasted."? The first post is the whole article published in the LA Times, it's the complete transcript. If you want to make your own opinion it doesn't really make sense to summarize wink3.gif

Here's a summary of the contents of the tapes, it's also a part of the article, it's an introduction to the whole transcripts, so I'm just copying/pasting what has already been posted above.

QUOTE
I summarize the tapes as follows:

I. She explains that she has recorded her free associating (saying whatever comes into her mind; a necessary technique used in psychoanalytic therapy) at home because she could not do it in office sessions. She hoped this would assist in her treatment. And she believes that she has discovered a means of overcoming the resistance which patients have in being unable to comply with the psychiatrist's request to free associate because the mind becomes a blank.

2. She tells how she plans to become the highest paid actress in Hollywood so that she can finance everything that she wants to do.

3. She says that she aspires to do Shakespeare and that she will pay Lee [Strasberg] to coach her in Shakespeare as his only student for one year.

4. Laurence Olivier, she says, had agreed to polish her Shakespearean training after Strasberg finished, and she would pay him whatever he asked

5. She says she would pay Dr. Greenson to be his only patient while she was undergoing the instruction in Shakespeare.

6. She says that when she is ready she would produce and act in all of the Shakespeare plays that she would put in film under the rubric Marilyn Monroe Shakespeare Festival.

7. For those many writers who maintain that she was going to blow the whistle on J. F. Kennedy about their sexual relationship, she shoots down such speculation when she expresses utmost admiration for the President and explicitly says she would never embarrass him.

8. Her remarks disprove those who claim that she killed herself because Robert Kennedy broke off their relationship because it was she who broke it off.

9. She strongly assert that she wanted to rid herself of Eunice Murray, her housekeeper, and requested Dr. Greenson's assistance in so doing.

10. She says that she never had an orgasm before becoming Dr. Greenson's patient but that he had cured her of that infirmity for which was she was forever grateful. (I add, so much for author Spoto and his ilk who falsely and maliciously claim that Dr. Greenson was implicated in killing her.)
N.u.r.v
ok thanks.
N.u.r.v
wow this really explains a lot, thanks for posting it.
sabine
Guys..... no.gif ....here it comes. Brace yourselves.
This stuff is BOGUS!
John minor is not to be trusted. And here is why:

1. What he is saying is going hand in hand with the book that came out and he collected a fee...he's also being paid for interviews....so he's making money from these 'tapes'. His timing is also curious. He listened to those tapes over 40 years ago but just now releases the material just as a book comes out. Hmmmm....

2, WHy would Minor be the only one allowed to listen to these tapes made by Marilyn for Dr. greenson? Were Minor and Greenson friends? Did they know eachother beforehand?
If Marilyn died by killer enema (and Minor seems to think so), why would Greenson (the logical culprit) show Minor these tapes? Greenson would want people to think Marilyn died from a suicide.

3, Minor bases his belief that Marilyn was murdered by killer enema on a discoloration found in Marilyn's colon. He ignores the fact that this discoloration wasn't located where an enema would have been placed.

Besides this:

John Minor is not a medical doctor. He simply sat in on Marilyn's authopsy. That does not make him any kind of expert to state what killed Marilyn Monroe.

John minor, at the time of his claim that Marilyn died from an enema, knew nothing of marilyn's life and lifestyle. I feel he was badly equiped to make such a flippant diagnosis.


sabine

PS: And that's how i feel
sabine
OMG...i just can't help myself.
here is a quote by John minor....the medical "expert".

Minor: ~"1. It is unlikely that Miss Monroe swallowed a large amount of Nembutal capsules without leaving any traces of the drug in her stomach or duodenum (first part of small intestine into which the stomach empties). "~


Sabine: ~"Modern forensic testing performed by an actual toxocologist shows that the nembutals would disolve in under 10 minutes (they do not need to digest first since they are neither fat,protein or fiber) and empty into the intestine completely in under an hour. No residue would stick to the smooth stomach lining because the nembutal was now liquid. Also, Marilyn had not eaten that day."~


Minor: ~"Even though the stomach contents disappeared and were thus not available for examination, we can conclude this from the fact that, had she taken so many capsules orally, the yellow coloring of the capsules (from which come the street name "yellow jackets") there should have been yellow dye stains in the stomach or duodenum. There were no such stains."~


Sabine: ~"The stomach contents didn't 'dissapear"....they were discarded after they were tested. Remember how they didn't find any crystals in the stomach contents? Well, HOW would they know that had the contents been discarded??Coroner Noguchi himself explains that the nembutal does NOT leave a stain behind. Read it for yourselves in his book."~


So, seems to me that this medical 'expert', John Minor (who's not a medical doctor of any kind) is totally off track!!!
He seem to think he knows what he's talking about but it's HOGWASH.

And as far as his 'transcript' goes....he took well known aspects of Marilyn's life and cliched them to the max and served it up to the fans. He sat in on Marilyn's authopsy and beyond that he knows about ZIP. Another guy ripping us off for money. That's the way i see it. first Slatzer's red diary, now minor's 'transcript'....yeah, next year it'll be Marilyn herself giving an interview from the 'beyond'.
Personnally, i am INSULTED. no.gif


sabine
Tara
I'm with you on this one Sabine. The more I think about it, the less I believe Miner and his 'transcripts'. angry.gif
sabine
GOTCHA JOHN MINOR!!!!!! coolio.gif

he claims Marilyn spoke about Slatzer's 'marriage' to Marilyn in 1962....BUT...Slatzer didn't come out with that claim untill AFTER Marilyn's death.

Minor got himself in a bind there!! no.gif



sabine
marilyn
This is all very interesting but i don't like the idea to exhume her body again.
Why don't they let her rest.
They can't do anything about it anymore.
allmost everyone from that time is death.
I hope they let her rest.
sabine
The exhuming of the body is a bit nuts.....what is this about? Well, if they do this then they will find out for sure how Marilyn died....and it's not a big secret it was via overdose. What's the point?
John minor, in my opinion, if off his rocker.
First he claimed he heard "a tape" Marilyn made for Dr. greenson for just a short time.
Everytime he publicly spoke about it his story changed and grew 'bigger'....now there were "tapes"...not "tape"...and he got to listen to them for HOURS....blah blah blah. Minor's 'transcripts' are only discussed and given the time of day thru conspiracy authors, such as Slatzer (repeatetly), Anthony summers (borderline conspiracy author)...and the authors of "the last take". Minor won't go near a resputable author with this stuff.
Slatzer and Minor go hand in hand.

sabine


PS: Anthony Summers wrote "Goddess". In my opinion he is borderline conspiracy because he had a big helping hand from Slatzer and people like jeane Carmen. He does do good research but is misled by these people.
meganmarilyn
What's strikes me as something really, really wrong with this 'supposed' analysis, is Marilyn's language. I don't think I have ever heard her say the word 'ass' in reference to her behind. It seems here that she had a foul mouth, and is vulgar. This totally contradicts with her personallity and even her past.

She sounds more Richard Pryor than herself. This is why I don't buy this at all. Yes I am sure she swore and used bad language, but her thoughts in this free association analysis are above and beyond.

Example of some statements that do not sound like her...

'"Bless you, Doctor. What you say is gospel to me. By now I've had lots of orgasms. Not only one, but 2 and 3 with a man who takes his time.

I never cried so hard as I did after my first orgasm. It was because of the years I had ...never had an orgasm."


I cannot believe that Marilyn would be CRYING becaus of her lack of an orgasim. No where does she mention the word 'Love' when talking about her relationships here or problems in the bedroom. And we all know the REASON she was so sad, was because she was lonely and was always looking for love. I just can't believe that she would be so excited because Dr. Greenson solved her problem on the SEXUAL matter. That it was the TOP priority in her life. No mention of love, or trying to find love. That right there is out of character for her.

"I stood naked in front of my full length mirrors for a long time yesterday. I was all made up with my hair done. What did I see. My breasts are beginning to sag a bit. ... My waist isn't bad. My ass is what it should be, the best there is. Legs, knees and ankles still shapely. And my feet are not too big. OK, Marilyn, you have it all there. It is decision time."

I don't doubt that Marilyn probably talked about herself being nude, but the phrase 'My ass' with how she just uses it is not the norm for her. I have NEVER heard of herself talking that way, or people quoting her in other books. Maybe she did say this. But it seems so out of character. I think Miner has embelleshed on alot of what she has said thruout the transcripts.
sabine
Hey Mels....how are ya? coolio.gif

let me tell you this...with my kowledge of Marilyn i can write a BETTER transcript than this Minor character...lol.
Like i said before...he took some well known facts about Marilyn and spun it into this story that's nothing but one big cliche. PS: in my opinion.
He is also totally off the mark with his medical statements.


sabine
Tara
I just saw Miner on a news programme ... he seems to be far more delusional than Marilyn ever was. I feel that anyone who has read a few biographies could make up something like this.

Unfortunately, unless the tapes are found, we will never be able to disprove his claims entirely. He will go on making money out of this for some time. It's easy to exploit Marilyn, because the dead don't sue.

Personally, I think they are fakes. I have thought about this far too much lately, and that's my conclusion. All I can say is, what goes around comes around. You reap what you sow.
Joan Newman
I too, like Megan, thought the language used in the tapes was unlike Marilyn. Marilyn always seemed very sweet, forgiving of everyone, even those who were mean and hurt her so, not vulgar and so obssessed with sex, her body, enemas, orgasms, etc.. I think Marilyn would have had alot more intelligent and substantial things to speak of, even to this "so called" Doctor. I never liked him from the get go.
meganmarilyn
Another thing that is out of place is the topics Marilyn decided to talk about. Instead of talking about her current problems or her situation with Fox, etc., she goes over every detail (it seems) of every known event that was seen as controversial. Why would she go back to 1950 and talk about her entire relationship with Johnny Hyde? What is the reason for it? Then onto Joan Crawford. Which would have happened around 1952 or so if true. Why would she bring that up out of the blue in 1962 in this analysis? Then she goes and talks about her marriages in detail.

Unless she was told by Greenson previously to go thru her entire life as a young star up to 1962, I don't get it.

It would seem to me the most important things she would want to talk about during those last months in 1962 of her life were her problems with Fox, maybe the Kennedy's, Sinatra maybe, things revolving about her life right now. She finally gets to these things, but it seems so out of place in the analysis.

And I agree that Marilyn was a humble person when it came to her choice of words. Yes, in frustration she cursed like we all do, but that was rare. She seems to have no conscious in the level of vulgarity she is using during this session. Totally out of her norm.

I believe that her original tapes weren't 'sensationalized' enough for Mr. Miner's taste, and he wanted to get out to the public a more hardened Marilyn that the public hadn't seen before. Which I think he expanded and embelleshed her analysis. To get a much bigger response from the public so his celebrity or his name in the public's eye would be that much bigger.
Tara
I agree, they are too sensational. It reads more like a gossip column than 'free association'. If she was trying to delve into her unconscious, I think Marilyn would have talked more about her experiences as a child - because that is what haunted her more than anything.

Although I can't claim to know what Marilyn was really like, her thoughts and feelings. There are too many obvious discrepancies in the transcript, like saying she was a close friend of Mae West when in fact they never met. Or mentioning Slatzer's marriage claim, when that rumour did not emerge until the 1980s.

And most of all, John Miner's flaky character makes me disbelieve it all. He didn't mention the tapes when the case was re-opened in 1982, so why now? It is John Miner's character that needs to be re-examined. Not Marilyn's.
meganmarilyn
Very, very well said Tara! His character is all that needs to be said about this. Withholding for so long, when he could have relaased this info decades earlier.

I thought this statement was funny about Sinatra's lack of involvement with the Mafia.

"And the miserable ... press smears him with lies about his being involved with the Mafia and gangsters. And Frank just takes it."

LOL! Like him being at the Cal-Neva lodge 24/7, and no association with the mafia whatsoever!
RobM
Thanks Mels, really grateful for you taking the time to post the whole transcript. I've been reading small sections of it that were posted in the weekend newspapers over here so it's great to be able to now read through the whole thing. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks it's not entirely believable. I'm going to read it all through properly before I say anymore though.

Thanks again.
mels
I've read this over and over and given it a lot of thought to come to the conclusion that it's not, and can not be accurate.

We can't discredit the tapes based on some of your comments :

- Miner only listened to two tapes. If such tapes existed, there were necesseraly more than two, so it's not impossible that Marilyn didn't mention her tensions with 20th Century Fox or other problems that seemed to be major problems at the time she died on these very tapes (but how strangely convenient is it that she mentions only things that can be used by Miner to say "hey, see, she didn't commit suicide" ?!). The fact that she didn't mention other issues of her life can't mean the transcripts are false.

- None of us knew Marilyn intimately. We all have our ideas of who she was based on many things we read and saw from her, but we can't claim we know how she would have sounded or talked to her psychiatrist. We can't either claim to know if orgasms (or the lack of) wasn't one of her preoccupations, same goes with other things she says in the interview. I agree it sounds suspect, but it's not a good way to discredit something.

------

But there are more tangible things to rely on, and these made me take my decision once for all... When you read both the transcript and Miner's introductions, some facts are wrong!


Re. the transcript, facts that have already been stated in this thread, such as:


- Marilyn and Mae West never met
- Slatzer came up with the wedding thing in the 70s after someone turned him down when he wanted to write a book about Marilyn and that person told him it wasn't "corny" enough... Slatzer came back to him and told him "hey, by the way... I was married to her".

Re. Miner's introduction, we also have the facts that:

- Miner is paid for what he is claiming,
- When the investigation was reopened in 1982, he talked about the tapes but NEVER mentionned a transcript. However, when financial problems came his way, he conveniently found the transcripts,
- He's got it totally wrong in the autopsy claims (like the yellow trail... it's absolutely wrong, and the enema couldn't have happened because of a) the colon discoloration isn't on the right side, b) their were formed stools in Marilyn's system when they made the autopsy
- During the memorial on Monday, Mr Miner told Tony that he wrote the transcripts right after he listened to the tapes, which makes such mistakes as the one mentionned before unacceptable
- He claims he released the transcript to make Dr Greenson's reputation clear after books such as Spoto's came out, but Spoto's book is far from new, so why release them now and not when the book came out?

Mels.
Tara
QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Aug 9 2005, 09:11 PM)
Very, very well said Tara!  His character is all that needs to be said about this.  Withholding for so long, when he could have relaased this info decades earlier.

I thought this statement was funny about Sinatra's lack of involvement with the Mafia.

"And the miserable ... press smears him with lies about his being involved with the Mafia and gangsters. And Frank just takes it."

LOL!  Like him being at the Cal-Neva lodge 24/7, and no association with the mafia whatsoever!
[snapback]85997[/snapback]


Yes! And after all, what did Marilyn call the dog Frank gave her? Oh, that's right ... Maf-Honey!
Tara
QUOTE(mels @ Aug 10 2005, 12:48 PM)
I've read this over and over and given it a lot of thought to come to the conclusion that it's not, and can not be accurate.


We can't discredit the tapes based on some of your comments :

- Miner only listened to two tapes. If such tapes existed, there were necesseraly more than two, so it's not impossible that Marilyn didn't mention her tensions with 20th Century Fox or other problems that seemed to be major problems at the time she died on these very tapes (but how strangely convenient is it that she mentions only things that can be used by Miner to say "hey, see, she didn't commit suicide" ?!). The fact that she didn't mention other issues of her life can't mean the transcripts are false.

- None of us knew Marilyn intimately. We all have our ideas of who she was based on many things we read and saw from her, but we can't claim we know how she would have sounded or talked to her psychiatrist. We can't either claim to know if orgasms (or the lack of) wasn't one of her preoccupations, same goes with other things she says in the interview. I agree it sounds suspect, but it's not a good way to discredit something.

------

But there are more tangible things to rely on, and these made me take my decision once for all... When you read both the transcript and Miner's introductions, some facts are wrong!


Re. the transcript, facts that have already been stated in this thread, such as:


- Marilyn and Mae West never met
- Slatzer came up with the wedding thing in the 70s after someone turned him down when he wanted to write a book about Marilyn and that person told him it wasn't "corny" enough... Slatzer came back to him and told him "hey, by the way... I was married to her".

Re. Miner's introduction, we also have the facts that: 

- Miner is paid for what he is claiming,
- When the investigation was reopened in 1982, he talked about the tapes but NEVER mentionned a transcript. However, when financial problems came his way, he conveniently found the transcripts,
- He's got it totally wrong in the autopsy claims (like the yellow trail... it's absolutely wrong, and the enema couldn't have happened because of a) the colon discoloration isn't on the right side, b) their were formed stools in Marilyn's system when they made the autopsy
- During the memorial on Monday, Mr Miner told Tony that he wrote the transcripts right after he listened to the tapes, which makes such mistakes as the one mentionned before unacceptable
- He claims he released the transcript to make Dr Greenson's reputation clear after books such as Spoto's came out, but Spoto's book is far from new, so why release them now and not when the book came out?

Mels.
[snapback]86021[/snapback]


You're right Mels. There is no point speculating about whether or not the transcripts sound like what Marilyn might have said, when the source of the notes is so dubious, and there are several obvious discrepancies. Over the last few days I've learned very little about Marilyn, her life or what kind of person she was; nothing new at all. But I've learned an awful lot about these men who make money from spinning conspiracy theories about her death.
mels
QUOTE(Tara @ Aug 10 2005, 03:54 PM)
Over the last few days I've learned very little about Marilyn, her life or what kind of person she was; nothing new at all. But I've learned an awful lot about these men who make money from spinning conspiracy theories about her death.
[snapback]86025[/snapback]


Yep... that's pretty sad, isn't it ?... I just wish people would let her rest in peace instead of publishing such garbage, which, I am sure, will be taken for granted and true outside the Marilyn fandom... thumbdown.gif
Paju
Thank you for posting all this, Mels. I've read about these tapes on magazines (for all the Finns on board, Tuesday's Iltalehti has a small article about this), but I wanted to read the whole thing myself smile1.gif
suusmarie
QUOTE(Tara @ Aug 10 2005, 01:47 PM)
QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Aug 9 2005, 09:11 PM)
Very, very well said Tara!  His character is all that needs to be said about this.  Withholding for so long, when he could have relaased this info decades earlier.

I thought this statement was funny about Sinatra's lack of involvement with the Mafia.

"And the miserable ... press smears him with lies about his being involved with the Mafia and gangsters. And Frank just takes it."

LOL!  Like him being at the Cal-Neva lodge 24/7, and no association with the mafia whatsoever!
[snapback]85997[/snapback]


Yes! And after all, what did Marilyn call the dog Frank gave her? Oh, that's right ... Maf-Honey!
[snapback]86024[/snapback]




MM got that dog from Patricia Newcomb actually blush.gif
Tara
I have read in some books that the dog came from Sinatra, and in others that it was from Newcomb. It's the name that strikes me - could it be she was thinking of Frank?

Something bugs me in what Marilyn says about Frank's mafia connections (in the transcripts). I can't quite put my finger on it, it just seems wrong to me.
Celia
Sorry to be so late! I´ve been away for ages and now I come back and find this interesting topic here!
I agree with all of you guys, this John Miner is a lier. But what really makes me angry is the total lack of respect he shows for Marilyn!
How does he dare to insult someone that cannot defend herself, talking about so intimate things like
orgasms and masturbation among other things!!! pissed.gif
How can someone be so mean as to put invented words in the mouth of someone that has been dead for years!!!!
And if Marilyn threw all her pills into the toilette, how is it that lots of pills where found on her night table and we all have seen them in pictures?????
I hope that lier pays for what he´s done to poor Marilyn.
Couldn´t we fans do something to descredit him??? Like sending our "proofs" that he´s lying and trying to make money to "The Times"??? I think we should try! We could write an inform with our "proofs" and collect signatures of all the fans who agree.
Just an idea. I´m just to mad at this oportunist!
By the way, I couldn´t finish the stupid book "The secret tapes of Marilyn Monroe", I felt insulted.
Robby
QUOTE
Sorry to be so late! I´ve been away for ages and now I come back and find this interesting topic here!
I agree with all of you guys, this John Miner is a lier. But what really makes me angry is the total lack of respect he shows for Marilyn!
How does he dare to insult someone that cannot defend herself, talking about so intimate things like
orgasms and masturbation among other things!!!
How can someone be so mean as to put invented words in the mouth of someone that has been dead for years!!!!
And if Marilyn threw all her pills into the toilette, how is it that lots of pills where found on her night table and we all have seen them in pictures?????
I hope that lier pays for what he´s done to poor Marilyn.
Couldn´t we fans do something to descredit him??? Like sending our "proofs" that he´s lying and trying to make money to "The Times"??? I think we should try! We could write an inform with our "proofs" and collect signatures of all the fans who agree.
Just an idea. I´m just to mad at this oportunist!
By the way, I couldn´t finish the stupid book "The secret tapes of Marilyn Monroe", I felt insulted.


Well said Celia, if you do write a letter to 'The Times' I agree!
marilyn89
Yes this guy must be lying it
seems unlikely
Miss_Dee
I'm still learnin lots about Marilyn and even I smelled something fishy reading his "transcripts." The way her words were put and other discrepencies just weren't right. You guys really know your stuff including her timeline so i'm also learning through a lot of you.
rose
I think also Miner's text is not at least all of it not true.But when you wrote that Marilyn never used faul language,well,there's this accident for example when she said to assistant of a movie "Go fu*k yourself!".Nobody can be kind and gentle all the time.Not even Marilyn.After all,she was just a human like all of us.


"The salt of the earth" told an assistant director to go fuck himself.
-Billy Wilder

Arthur Miller pleaded Wilder not to wake Marilyn too soon and that she was salt of the earth etc.
Robby
MM was mentally ill at that time, she was unstable, in 1962, things we're changed, she was 'happy', and I think at that time of her life, she wouldn't say those things. I mean it's not common talk of her. And I'd never heard of that Fu*k thing.
Tara
I don't find it hard to believe that Marilyn may have used foul language at times. Or that she talked to her psychiatrist about her sex life. I agree with Rose on this one ... but my problem with this transcript is, I'm not convinced that John Miner is a reliable source. Unless the tapes were found, which seems unlikely, I'm reluctant to accept that these really are Marilyn's own words.
Joan Newman
QUOTE(Robby @ Dec 9 2005, 06:05 PM) [snapback]93804[/snapback]
MM was mentally ill at that time, she was unstable, in 1962, things we're changed, she was 'happy', and I think at that time of her life, she wouldn't say those things. I mean it's not common talk of her. And I'd never heard of that Fu*k thing.



I have read in different books that marilyn did swear and use the "f word. I have read that she used it often when arguing with Arthur Miller towards the end of their marriage. I have been trying to find the article that Truman Capote wrote about him and Marilyn where he said she used the "f" word. If I find it I will post it.
Miss_Dee
I'm sure she did cuss. Who doesn't? It was just the way the words were put together. Something was off.
Tara
I agree Diana. We'll probably never know the truth, but it just sounds like a bad Marilyn impersonator, not the real thing.
Joan Newman
QUOTE(Miss_Dee @ Dec 11 2005, 09:44 AM) [snapback]93943[/snapback]
I'm sure she did cuss. Who doesn't? It was just the way the words were put together. Something was off.




I know what you mean. It didn't seem like the way she spoke.
rose
QUOTE(Nettie @ Dec 10 2005, 07:45 AM) [snapback]93844[/snapback]
I have read in different books that marilyn did swear and use the "f word. I have read that she used it often when arguing with Arthur Miller towards the end of their marriage. I have been trying to find the article that Truman Capote wrote about him and Marilyn where he said she used the "f" word. If I find it I will post it.


Hi Nettie,I think I have read that same article also and well,there's fu*k and other not so nice but normal language which is not to ment to public's ears.After all,she was human being with ups and downs,not a saint or martyr.After all,she didn't even go to church if someone is wondering about it.So,big deal out of normal thing to most of us mmmaf_116.gif
Robby
Rose you've told me that you tihnk you saw a different MM Blue Movie then the Arline Hunters' one, and you think it was MM. Well I have a pic of it that I found on a MM Board. This is definately not Marilyn, and she couldn't been MM at all because the movie was made in 1947 or 1948. It's totally crap!
Joan Newman
QUOTE(Robby @ Dec 13 2005, 05:58 AM) [snapback]94040[/snapback]
Rose you've told me that you tihnk you saw a different MM Blue Movie then the Arline Hunters' one, and you think it was MM. Well I have a pic of it that I found on a MM Board. This is definately not Marilyn, and she couldn't been MM at all because the movie was made in 1947 or 1948. It's totally crap!



yucky.gif Those are horrible fakes.
Robby
Does anybody know who is the actress?
njeane77
After reading Matthew Smith's Secret Tapes of MM, I felt, like many Monroe fans, disappointed and angry that people can still making money from churning out conspiracy theory books - which aside from the validity of the 'new evidence' (i.e. the tapes), are full of inaccuracies and obvious mistakes, which anyone with a genuine interest in Marilyn Monroe would pick up instantly.
I felt annoyed at the time that I had purchased the book - especially as Smith had taken it upon himself to 'edit' the transcripts to protect Marilyn and the reader (WHAT FROM THE TRUTH?!), however when several newspapers published John Miner's full account several months later I was still intrigued enough to read on.
I think that there must have been tapes; and that Miner did listen to them in 1962 - and although he may well have remembered the gist of their contents, there is no way that someone could remember their conversational detail 45 years later. Like just about every person on the planet Miner will have read or heard stories about Monroe, and it's got to the point now where no one will know the real facts about her life - let alone how she died.
One interesting point that struck me was the Slatzer reference. Matthew Smith credits Slazter for being 'a long term friend of MM'. On page 203, Smith (up to his old editing tricks again) informs the reader that Marilyn has been 'rattled' by someone and that she has turned to Frank Sinatra for advice. How very, very odd, that in Miner's 'full' transcript the person is described as 'that b******d Slatzer'……
Miner has definitely got his facts muddled and it wouldn't surprise me if his literary agent has encouraged him to leave out the mundane and maybe elaborate on the more salacious and sellable aspects of the transcripts. However, as he certainly did interview Dr Greenson at the time I cannot believe that he would be foolhardy enough to make the entire thing up.
45 years on and most of the key players have gone - those that remain? Well I think you have to trust your gut instinct on any new MM revelations….
rose
Every time we buy something Marilyn related items we are doing what she hated most -she's becoming a thing.. hmm.gif but what else can we do..
Tara
QUOTE(njeane77 @ Dec 19 2005, 10:26 AM) [snapback]94526[/snapback]
After reading Matthew Smith's Secret Tapes of MM, I felt, like many Monroe fans, disappointed and angry that people can still making money from churning out conspiracy theory books - which aside from the validity of the 'new evidence' (i.e. the tapes), are full of inaccuracies and obvious mistakes, which anyone with a genuine interest in Marilyn Monroe would pick up instantly.
I felt annoyed at the time that I had purchased the book - especially as Smith had taken it upon himself to 'edit' the transcripts to protect Marilyn and the reader (WHAT FROM THE TRUTH?!), however when several newspapers published John Miner's full account several months later I was still intrigued enough to read on.
I think that there must have been tapes; and that Miner did listen to them in 1962 - and although he may well have remembered the gist of their contents, there is no way that someone could remember their conversational detail 45 years later. Like just about every person on the planet Miner will have read or heard stories about Monroe, and it's got to the point now where no one will know the real facts about her life - let alone how she died.
One interesting point that struck me was the Slatzer reference. Matthew Smith credits Slazter for being 'a long term friend of MM'. On page 203, Smith (up to his old editing tricks again) informs the reader that Marilyn has been 'rattled' by someone and that she has turned to Frank Sinatra for advice. How very, very odd, that in Miner's 'full' transcript the person is described as 'that b******d Slatzer'……
Miner has definitely got his facts muddled and it wouldn't surprise me if his literary agent has encouraged him to leave out the mundane and maybe elaborate on the more salacious and sellable aspects of the transcripts. However, as he certainly did interview Dr Greenson at the time I cannot believe that he would be foolhardy enough to make the entire thing up.
45 years on and most of the key players have gone - those that remain? Well I think you have to trust your gut instinct on any new MM revelations….



Thanks for your thoughts Shirley, very insightful.
sabine
I say let's boycott all the books that built a case on unsubstantiated claims!!!!!!!!!
WE, as fans, are being taken for a ride! angry.gif
The "transcripts" are based on one guys "memory" of tapes heard over 40 years ago????
Give me a break. huh.gif
Ok, and while i am at it....let me clarify what i think of John Minor....
He sat in on Marilyn's authopsy, this is true. But he was not a MEDICAL DOCTOR but from the dictrict attorney's office!!!
YET...he builds an entire case of KILLER ENEMAS based on a discoloration in Marilyn's colon (that wasn't even at the opening of the colon)....
He NEVER concidered Marilyn's medical history or lifestyle....he didn't know ZIPPO about her before the authopsy.....GIVE ME A BREAK.
Next he comes out as the sole "ear witness" to tapes Marilyn suposedly made for Greenson.....yeah right.....i believe that one when pigs learn how to fly.... doh.gif
I am going to throw Minor unto the same heep as Slatzer, Milo Speriglio and Donald H. Wolfe..... yuk.gif

Don't be taken in by those guys!!!!! They make a living of us Marilyn fans!

sabine
Young
I agree, Sabine.
marilyns_firstkiss
i believe its also a well known fact that sinatra had part ownership of cal neva lodge with sam giancana(huge mafia boss). also dick anderson was killed shortly after he had a fistfight with sinatra....
also i read in a frank bio recently that he yelled " shutup norma jean! your so dumb sometimes!" they also go on to say that mm was drinking out of a flask by then and looked pathetic...anyways, a little off topic, but it doesn't seem to support miners transcripts.
and it makes me dislike frank,,,but who knows what to believe anymore!
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