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Everlasting Star Community > The experts' lounge > Marilyn's mysterious death > General discussion
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N.u.r.v
ANNETTE WITHERIDGE IN NEW YORK

HE WAS only married to Marilyn Monroe for nine turbulent months, but Joe DiMaggio, the reclusive US baseball legend, vowed he would never forgive the Kennedys for her death.

Now, four years after his own demise, the man immortalised by Simon and Garfunkel in the song Mrs Robinson appears to have his revenge.

A new book, written by his long-time lawyer and close companion Morris Engelberg, reveals he really did believe the Kennedy clan killed Monroe.

"They murdered the one person I loved," DiMaggio confided to Mr Engelberg.

Officially, Monroe, who allegedly enjoyed affairs with both John Kennedy, the US president, and his attorney general brother, Robert, committed suicide with an overdose of sleeping pills in 1962.

But rumours she was killed by the Kennedys because she knew too much about the political dynasty’s Mafia links and was threatening to go public to get back at Robert for dumping her have persisted ever since.

DiMaggio, who organised Monroe’s funeral and, for the next 20 years, had white roses delivered to her grave twice a week, refused to talk publicly about what he thought happened. However, he appears to have sanctioned his memoirs to come out after his death.

The Yankee Clipper, as he was known, claims to have read the Hollywood star’s diary after her death.

Monroe’s journal disappeared shortly afterwards but, according to the book DiMaggio: Setting the Record Straight, the star of The Seven Year Itch had apparently noted her conversations with Robert Kennedy about CIA plans to poison Fidel Castro with the aid of the Chicago gangster Sam Giancana, and the government’s investigation into union leader Jimmy Hoffa’s Mafia links.

Monroe met the Kennedys through Peter Lawford, their British brother-in-law, and is believed to have passed on Robert’s pillow talk to Frank Sinatra, who in turn reported to Giancana.

Engelberg and co-author Marv Schneider tell how Monroe spoke to DiMaggio’s son, Joe Jnr, on the night she died saying she wanted to set the record straight.

"She said she spoke with RFK [Robert Kennedy] three or four times a week and he told her about the work he was doing," the book reveals. "He mentioned which mobsters they were going after. Marilyn would pass on some of those tidbits to Sinatra, according to Joe Jnr."

DiMaggio shed no tears when the Kennedys were assassinated. According to the book, which contains a foreword by Henry Kissinger, DiMaggio believed "they got what they deserved".

DiMaggio, who was 84 when he died after a long battle with cancer, refused to shake Robert Kennedy’s hand when they met at New York’s Yankee Stadium. Just a few years before he died he agreed to go to the Kennedy Centre only if no member of the extended political family was there.

When Engelberg asked him why, DiMaggio responded: "What they did to me will never be forgotten."

DiMaggio was considered to be one of the greatest baseball players, but he hated the limelight and sports fans were stunned when he suddenly married Monroe in 1954. He was 39 and already retired, she was 27 and at the height of her fame.

They spent their honeymoon in Japan, where 100,000 US troops turned out to meet them. Afterwards, Monroe commented: "I have never heard so much cheering." DiMaggio replied knowingly: "I have."

Few were surprised when the couple split within nine months. He moved to Hollywood, Florida, and in later years, became estranged from his only son, Joe Jnr, and other family members.

Engelberg, his next door neighbour, came under attack in the months before the player’s death for appearing to control every aspect of DiMaggio’s life.
ellen
ooooooooh! juicy stuff it make's you think as i don't think joe was a gossip who would just make this up.interesting honey thank's for sharing clapping.gif
N.u.r.v
I know, but I think it has been said that the US was planning to do posion his cigars.
Tara
QUOTE(N.u.r.v @ Jun 5 2005, 02:03 AM)
ANNETTE WITHERIDGE IN NEW YORK


A new book, written by his long-time lawyer and close companion Morris Engelberg, reveals he really did believe the Kennedy clan killed Monroe.

Engelberg, his next door neighbour, came under attack in the months before the player’s death for appearing to control every aspect of DiMaggio’s life.
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Interesting stuff, thanks - but this makes me doubt that Engleberg can be trusted.
Asia
Good stuff, but I agree with Tara, I don't find Engelberg a credible person... These are only assumptions which do not prove anything.

Anyways, where did Joe Joe DiMaggio get her diary from. According to the text, he claimed to had done it after her death. When? Where? How? What happened to the diary after he had read it?
N.u.r.v
who knows?
Asia
Like, noone... That only proves how senseless it is... Sb saw sth, and so on... Not a single proof whatsoever. How could he saw the diary if it had disappeared... That would mean that he actually owned it... Or maybe the people who stole it, or whatever, let him have it for a while and read it... Nonsense.
ariella
Just some important touch points about The Maurice Engelberg book:

First it's not new. It has been out for several years.

1. It's absolutley true Engelberg was close to Joe. I would go so far as to say one of his closest and most trusted friends. Their relationship went back years. he was with Joe until the end.

2. Mister Engelberg wrote his book primarily as a response to the DiMaggio biography writtten by Pulitzer prize winning author Richard Ben Creamer. Cremers book came out just a few months after Dimaggio's passing. Creamer s book is factualy a mess. DiMaggio refused an interview with Cramer and it is believed Creamer retaliated by painting a very ugly and vindictive portrait of Joe. besides upsetting most of Joe's family and freiends he openly attcked Engelberg in the book accusiing him of selling fake autographs of Dimaggio.

In response, Engelberg sued Creamer. Creamer sued back and the two have bickered endlessly in court.

Engelbergs book isn't terrible, but he does assume and presume and occassionaly play into telling the reader what the reader wants to hear. Not just in regards to marilyn, but regarding every aspect of Joe's life. I would say, if you don't know anything about Joe it would be easy to believe Engelbergs book. If you do, you can wade through the exxagerations and gain a pretty good idea of who Joe was.
Unlike Creamers book, an embarrassing hatchet job without any sources credited...


Joe did not believe The Kennedys literallly killed Monroe. That is a fact backed up by countless authors who researched Joe and spoke with family members. I've been fascinated by Joe forever, even before marilyn, so I have a pretttty strong working knowledge of his life and enough books and articles, documentaries and interviews to stae he did not believe The Kennedys were literallly involved. Only that her life style choices and the people she chose to associate with accelerated her demise.

oh and I forgot to mention, in Engelbetrgs book the diary incident is mentioned in passing. It's not treated l;ike a bombshell or anything.
Paju
I was thinking the same thing you said: maybe DiMaggio didn't believe that the Kennedys literally killed Marilyn. They just had a bad influence on her and made her more depressed.
Tara
Thanks so much for the info Elka coolio.gif
sabine
More crap making money of marilyn's death.
Joe dimaggio was also angry with frank sinatra and that whole gang...he was angry with Marilyn's friends in general. Did they literally kill her,too?
It's crap......
Let's admit to ourselves and deal with the fact that Marilyn was responsible for her own death...

sabine
N.u.r.v
I am sorry but there is too much evidence to say otherwise, and too little evidence to say otherwise.

If Marilyn was responsible for her own death, why where the phone records erased, and why is there no offical police report?
Asia
Will this topic ever die? biggrin.gif

Why is so hard to accept she did kill herself? I'm not saying that she did that for 100%. We weren't there, we will never know for sure. Sometimes things aren't what they appear to be, but I don't see that much evidence to say otherwise. It's just a myth, legend, the whole conspiracy and so on...
Tara
Elka, I'm impressed by your knowledge of Joe. Which biography do you most recommend?
sabine
N.U.R.V....the police records were confiscated for the simple reason that Marilyn had an affair with the president...and it only makes sense that the CIA wanted to keep that under control....why does this point toward murder?
Anyhow, how do you think they physically killed her? With nembutal? Doubtful.
There WAS a police report. I don't know what you're referring to.
The conspiracy theories have GOT TO GO.


sabine

For all of you that believe Marilyn was somehow 'murdered'...what about Marilyn's history of overdoses and drugabuse, hospitalization and depression? is that beeing pushed aside and denied in favor of some cacamany theory?
Marilyn overdosed several times and was saved each time by either Arthur Miller or Paula Strasberg....
The last two years of Marilyns life showed mayor depression, serious drug issues and detoxes, in and out of hospitals....
She nearly overdosed TWICE in the last few weeks before her actual death! Magazines of that time predicted her actual suicide!! Yes, that is true!!! (I have many vintage magazines). Now, those are the facts....conspiracy theories have no proof at all. Where is the proof?
Let's hear it....

The one thing that nobody from the conspiracy camp can seem to tell me is HOW did they actually kill Marilyn?
She died from a drugoverdose...is this the normal way to kill somebody?
I have heard stuff like "she was forced to take the pills"......i mean, comon!

sabine

PS: N.U.R.V.....you wrote this in support to a murder conspiracy:

"I am sorry but there is too much evidence to say otherwise,"

I have to strongly dissagree. There is NO evidence Marilyn was murdered. Absolutely none. Zippo. It is very misleading to claim that there is actual proof. There are 'mystery sources', hear-say, rumours and speculation....none of it amounts to PROOF. If there was they would have proven it a long time ago and we wouldn't have this conversation.

sabine
N.u.r.v
OK I realize what I said is probably misleading, but what I honestly meant was that there was a lot of evidence showing something suspicious took place.


Why would the C.I.A. care if Marilyn Monroe committed suicide? If President Kennedy had no involvement of what happened, it seems to me that he or they would try to clear his name to the best of their abilities. I know it will be difficult clearing someone's name after this type of incidient, but I guess they dont have the time for that. Instead they cover the whole thing up and make look like a suicide, so they just don't have to deal with it, or unless there was something really to hide. It makes sense that the original police report went missing. I think I have said this before but Jeanne Carmen said on Larry King Live that Peter Lawford "told" her what happened, but was drunk as a skunk, whether that means suicide or murder I honestly think that we will never know.
sabine
N.U.R.V...good morning! bye1.gif
Here's your quote:
"....but what I honestly meant was that there was a lot of evidence showing something suspicious took place."

My reply: Nope, it's only what people twist it into. For every question you have about this case there is a plain and simple and logical answer and then there is a twisted, suspicious, sinister answer as well. It all depends on:

a, what books you're reading
b, what you want to believe
c, and the facts you gathered.

And that's the bottomline.

Ok, if the Kennedys and the CIA somehow had Marilyn killed , the question remains, HOW??? How did they actually physically do it? And right under the nose of witnesses????
If they wanted her dead they could have done it any number of the ususal ways and make it look like an accident....BUT NEMBUTAL????
Who kills another with Nembutal???
And what about the lethal dose of CHLORAL HYDRATE in Marilyn's bloodstream...was that put there by the CIA,too??

See...this just doesn't add up. huh.gif

Furthermore, what's the motive for wanting her dead??? because she slept with J.F.K? So what.
Because she was going to call a pressconference?? That's a SLATZER factoid.
What would she have said anyways? She slept with the married President and he dumped her? WHO wants to admit to THAT?
Was it because she "knew too much"?? What would the president or his brother tell an actress who's having a brief affair with the president that could endanger her Life...oh heck....their careers as well as the SAFETY OF THE COUNTRY?
Comon...this is TOO MUCH....much too much! no.gif

The facts remain that Marilyn's last 2 years of her life were chuck full of detoxes, depression, drugabuse, hospitalizations, career failures, divorce,overdoses....these are the REAL facts.


sabine
N.u.r.v
She became a security risk to both RFK and JFK, it's my understanding that she was seeing both of them.

Now why would a personal diary be missing, unless she had some pretty incriminating things written down. I can understand the offical police report. It is known that Marilyn wrote her conversations down that she had with them so she could use it against them if it ever came to that.

"She said she spoke with RFK [Robert Kennedy] three or four times a week and he told her about the work he was doing," the book reveals. "He mentioned which mobsters they were going after. Marilyn would pass on some of those tidbits to Sinatra, according to Joe Jnr."

The Kennedy connection is a confusing and sensitive area. It is believed that Marilyn's phone had been tapped both by Robert Kennedy through the Justice Dept. and by his enemy, teamster boss Jimmy Hoffa. (Telephone toll tickets, which might have shed light on the case, have disappeared.) That a cover-up was enacted by the Los Angeles police and coroner is suspected. Sgt. Jack Clemmons, who was the first police officer to arrive at Marilyn's house the night of her death, later stated, "She was murdered by needle injection by someone she knew and probably trusted. I have no doubt of it. This was the cover-up crime of the century--a matter of [Los Angeles Chief of Police] Bill Parker and other officials here protecting a famous political family of the East who had good reason to shut Monroe's mouth." Deputy Coroner Lionel Grandison, who signed Marilyn's death certificate, later stated, "The whole thing was organized to hide the truth. An original autopsy file vanished, a scrawled note that Marilyn Monroe wrote and which did not speak of suicide also vanished, and so did the first [Sgt. Clemmons's] police report. I was told to sign the official report--or I'd find myself in a position I couldn't get out of." It is also interesting to note that two key witnesses were not available for questioning after Marilyn's death. Mrs. Murray moved out of her apartment the next day, leaving no forwarding address. She later reported that she had come into some money and had taken an extended trip to Europe. Pat Newcomb, Marilyn's press agent, had an argument with reporters the Sunday when the body was discovered, and was fired from her job by the firm that employed her. She immediately accepted an invitation to visit the Kennedy compound at Hyannis Port, after which she also took a long European vacation. When she returned she went to work for the Justice Dept. in an office next door to Bobby Kennedy's.

In his book Who Killed Marilyn? (1976), Tony Sciacca presents a number of murder theories. One is that Kennedy loyalists in either the Justice Dept. or the CIA--possibly through Mafia connections--killed Marilyn Monroe with a lethal dose of injected barbiturates in order to protect the Kennedy brothers from the threat of scandal. Sciacca strenuously argues that he believes Robert Kennedy would have known nothing about this, that he was not involved in any way. Another theory is that rightist groups within the CIA killed Marilyn to expose the scandal and possibly frame Robert and John Kennedy. After their plot failed, they decided on more drastic measures against the Kennedys, which eventually led to Dallas and Los Angeles.

A number of writers, including Norman Mailer, relate other, sometimes bizarre, theories. One is that Jimmy Hoffa and the teamsters were involved in an effort to discredit or blackmail Robert Kennedy. A second is that Cuban agents murdered Monroe as a reprisal against the Kennedys for the CIA-initiated Mafia contract that was put out on Fidel Castro. Yet another outlandish theory attributes her death to Communist conspirators who sought to ruin the Kennedy brothers by linking them to murder.

and not to mention and LAPD officer stopped a speeding car that night leaving Marilyn's area, and in that car was Peter Lawford, Dr. Greenson, and the man himself RFK
sabine
N.u.r.v....WHAT ARE YOU READING? eyebrow.gif
You keep quoting Donald Wolfe and that Man believes Dr. Greenson killed Marilyn with a big needle. You need to put down those awful conspiracy books already and start reading other stuff....
The cop that told the story that he stopped a speeding car in the middle of the night with Peter Lawford driving, Bobby Kennedy in the back with Dr. Greenson is FULL OF IT....
First of all, no report was filed. Secondly, what would Greenson be doing with Kennedy and lawford? HE DID NOT LIKE THEM and had warned Marilyn against them...he did not approve of her relationship with these people because he knew how damaging it was.
Now suddenly he's in cahoots with them???? YEAH RIGHT. ohmy.gif
And where would they be taking the doctor? he had his own car. This is baloney.
Stop reading "the last days of marilyn monroe' and line your birdcage with it, as I do...hehehehe. biggrin.gif
Don't you get it by now? These people make lots of money with this nonsense.
Donald Wolfe is a menace....and a big Slatzer suporter.
Why do you believe these guys?

sabine

QUOTE: In his book Who Killed Marilyn? (1976), Tony Sciacca presents a number of murder theories


OMG!!!! He's in with Slatzer, Speriglio and other like them, too!!!!
People, get this please: they make money off us with this stuff. And that's all. They have no clue about marilyn's daily life or how much she suffered. None.

sabine
N.u.r.v
I have my own theroies as well, ya I will admit some of this stuff does sound off the wall.
ellen
i know there are strong view's here about prove marilyn was murdered,and i think prove she wasn't in fact no don't bother because all you would have would be your personell view of what happened.
i know that a lot of people have worked hard and have finally reached a conclusion on how marilyn actually died.
but nobody can prove she wasn't murdered only how she died.
sabine
To murder somebody you usually need a motive.....what would be the motive?
That Marilyn "knew too much"??? A SLATZER line.
That she was going to 'call a pressconference"? Another SLATZER line.
And Slatzer was an insane Liar of a man that was obviously a sandwich short of a picnic. unsure.gif
Yes, it can be proven that Marilyn wasn't murdered.....look at her Life closely leading up to her death and you all will see that there was something DRASTICALLY wrong with Marilyn.
The conspiracy people overlook this entirely and try to hang this on somebody else. It's weird.
And one theory is weirder than the next....pillow smothering, killer enemas, hot shots....
The fact is that Marilyn died from the very drug she herself purchased the day before.....
How does THAT fit into a murderplot????
What would be the outrageous coincidence that Marilyn would be murdered with the very same drug she bought for herself? This notion is bizarre.
And what about the LETHAL DOSE OF CHLORAL HYDRATE? Marilyn died due to TWO lethal amounts of different drugs taken together. Who would use this method to murder somebody?
And that's the bottomline for me.
And now they proved with the latest forensic testing that :yes....her stomach could have been empty after taking the pills and the explanation is so simple it's almost pathetic.
A bleeding stomach is the last tell-tale sign that they were there.
Marilyn overdosed on purpose. No doubt.
Everything else is just invented to keep us buying books....

I think it's time that we as Fans take a stand against these so called "authors" of conspiracy books because they are in reality rip-off artists....they pull money out of our pockets and make a fat living off Marilyn's sad death.
This is what ticks me off, guys!!! Marilyn herself would be appalled. no.gif

sabine
ellen
all that aside sabine it still can't be proven either way whether she was murdered or not.
i respect your feeling's on this subject but nobody know's for sure 100% what happened that night to marilyn as far as murder or not go's.
N.u.r.v
I as well respect your feelings on the subject, and the truth is we will never really actually know what happened, until we see her in the afterlife.

but I got to thinking the reason the CIA tried to cover it all up is because they were trying to clear any involvement that the public may know of JFK and Marilyn, just a thought, but then again since it was covered up.....
sabine
ELLEN: all that aside sabine it still can't be proven either way whether she was murdered or not.
i respect your feeling's on this subject but nobody know's for sure 100% what happened that night to marilyn as far as murder or not go's.


Sabine: Well, i can make a good educated guess based on the facts that are REAL, however. I feel about 99% sure it was suicide. Also, looking at Marilyn's life the last year and a half speaks volumnes as well. No, i wasn't there..as has been pointed out... rolleyes1.gif ....but i ain't no dummy and i will not be had by these conspiracy people. They hope that we will somehow overlook very important details and believe a murder plot. Their theories have about as many holes as swiss cheese. biggrin.gif
I don't see where it's all that complicated anyways....

sabine.
sabine
Guys....i keep hearing "we will never know" and all that kind of talk.....but we already have the facts and truth in front of us. It is up to us to see it.
They already proved the 'empty stomach' with latest testing.....by professional medical teams...the stomach bleeding also gives it away.
Marilyn was deeply depressed...she saw her shrink at least 3 hours the day she died....that's a heck of a session.
And besides, she saw her shrink almost every single day, SOMETIMES TWICE in the same day. Tell me there isn't something drastically wrong here.
Last but not least, Marilyn bought the drugs that killed her.
This detail is HUGE and can not be ignored.

sabine

PS: Guys.... blush.gif .... I see the facts and i conclude from them. And these facts are real, not speculation, like the conspiracy theories.
ellen
sabine i am interested in what you have to say and i alway's think about what you have said,i don't discard what you have said i find it really interesting. thumbup1.gif
i know you can make an educated guess but it would only be a guess,i don't know it's not enough for me right now.whether i just don't want to except it or don't believe it whatever reason i'm not sure.but i am thinking about it lately a lot. unsure.gif
i also no it must be extremly frustrating for you when you say you have worked hard and have come to this conclusion and some of us are like hhhmmmmmm!
i just wanted you to know i don't think your wrong but i'm not sure marilyn just killed herself but stay with me i may come around biggrin.gif
the first book i ever had about marilyn norma jean by fred lawerence guiles and after i read it i was a hooked marilyn fan,i would sit and play candle in the wind and cry just trying to understand why she did it.then i bought more book's ,was i brain washed hhhmmmmm! i'm gonna do some back tracking.
the suicide was what made me want to know more about her.
oh sabine look what you've gone and done laugh.gif now i've about 40 book's to read w00t.gif
sabine
Ellen....hi... biggrin.gif
Well, i am glad i got you at least thinking about it.
The biggest clues for me that Marilyn committed suicide are :

a, She bought the drugs that killed her
b, she snuck behind her shrink's back and bought the drugs from another doctor
c, her stomach lining was bleeding (evidence of an oral overdose)
d, she had a severe drugproblem
e, she was in intense psychotherapy (saw her shrink almost daily) and suffered from depression
f, she had nearly overdosed several times in the last 2 months before she died
g, her friends speak of a 'suicide watch' over Marilyn

HERE IS MORE INFO: Vintage Magazine of the time actually PREDICT Marilyn's suicide! Woah, that threw me for a loop.
More evidence: Natalie Wood spoke of a party that she and boyfirned at the time (Warren Beatty) attended at the Lawfords shortly before the Cal Neva weekend and Natalie spoke of seeing Marilyn.....mumbling to herself about being depressed about her age.....and it upset Natalie.
This is backed up by the Greenson children who report that they saw Marilyn shortly after her 36th birthday...laying depressed in her bedroom, unable to get up, crying about 'getting older' and being alone......

When i look for authentic stuff about Marilyn i don't consult Conspiracy authors...that's for sure.
I go to the people that really knew Marilyn and were trusted by her....Susan Strasberg, Arthur Miller, Amy Greene, Norman Rosten, Greenson family etc....there's a long list.

Reason's to disbelieve conspiracy theories:

a, lack of motive (pressconferences, diaries? A SLATZER invention)
b, lack of proof of HOW it was done (Marilyn died from a drugoverdose, yet there was no injection. Was she forced to take pills??? Farfetched and not the usual method to do away with somebody).
c, no sign of trauma on the body aside from ONE single bruise (if Marilyn had been forcefully subsued there would have been signs of this).
d, enema theory baloney (discoloration wasn't at the colon opening, wasn't even INSIDE the colon wall)
e, LAST BUT NOT LEAST....they ignore Marilyn's history!

So, when i say i take an 'educated guess' that means i look over all the evidence presented and the conspiracy stuff i literally have to make the pieces fit with a crowbar!
Want to know the funny part?? Even the conspiracy people can't agree among themselves!! They can't even get their own stories straight! rolleyes1.gif

Put the conspiracy books aside and look into Marilyn's daily Life from about late 1960 on (or even before that)....study what trusted people have said about it and observe a pattern.
MARILYN WAS IN TROUBLE physically as well as emotionally and certainly mayorly addicted to drugs. Nobody could save her from herself and that's the sad truth. no.gif
But we have to blame somebody else. No matter how outlandish the theories become...there's always somebody willing to believe it. I mean : KILLER ENEMAS. I can't believe people would give that the time of day.

sabine

PS: What was depressing Marilyn?

Possible answers:

A, Her dicvorce from Miller, his remarriage and his wife expecting a baby, something Marilyn couldn't achieve.
B, Her dramatic movie (the Misfits) bombed and wasn't received well by the critics, shooting down Marilyn's dream of becoming a respected serious actress.
C, Marilyn was fired from her last project. She brought it on but ever the less, how embarrassing and humiliating.
D, Hollywood was talking about the end of her career, calling her washed up and over the hill. (Appearing drunk at mayor public functions didn't help...."Golden globes"...Presidential gala...etc.)
E, Marilyn's age bothered her and there are sources collaborating this. (She was young but by Hollywood standards in '62, Marilyn was approaching middle age and career death).
F, Around the time of her death Marilyn found herself alone, without a husband, without the child she wanted, a mayor drugproblem instead and the resullting depression. Financially she wasn't doing to hot either.
G, Her career was at a standstill. The Strasbergs were distancing themselves from her and Marilyn had lost the respect of the new york acting community since her divorce from Miller and her return to hollywood (which concidered her a traitor...Marilyn just couldn't win).
H. Last but not least....Marilyn was being rejected by people that ment something to her. The Kennedys were just a small part of that but i think this upset her greatly. Marilyn dumped...imagine THAT! Imagine what this did to poor rejected Norma Jeane inside her. I am not a shrink but i feel it bothered that part of her.
Tara
But Marilyn was re-hired by Fox, and on a raised salary. There were some humiliating concessions, of course. She had to give up Paula Strasberg. But then, she was kind of disillusioned about the Strasbergs anyway.

I think that for any actress in Hollywood, getting older is a crisis point. Look at how many female stars' careers tail off when they reach 40 - even now. It's not such a problem for men, who aren't judged by their looks.

I think that Marilyn had thrown all her energy into getting her job back. But when she succeeded, she realised that it just wasn't enough. She was lonely, and even when things were going well, it didn't change this feeling of being unwanted, unloved, that had been with her since childhood.

Had she lived, I think Marilyn could have gone on to better things. Look at Anne Bancroft in The Graduate, Liz Taylor in Virginia Woolf. Both glamorous stars who proved they could act when the looks faded away. Marilyn might also have become a great humanitarian like Audrey Hepburn did. She was already a great human being.

But to move forward, she first had to conquer her depression and her drug addiction. Which was a very hard battle to win, especially alone.

Maybe that night she wasn't thinking of the future, because the pain of the present was overwhelming. Maybe she just wanted to shut out the world, and stop the hurting. Or perhaps it was a cry for help that went unanswered. My feeling is, it was the world's loss but maybe Marilyn is at peace now. I hope so.
Fav
QUOTE(Tara @ Jun 16 2005, 05:44 PM)
But Marilyn was re-hired by Fox, and on a raised salary. There were some humiliating concessions, of course. She had to give up Paula Strasberg. But then, she was kind of disillusioned about the Strasbergs anyway.

I think that for any actress in Hollywood, getting older is a crisis point. Look at how many female stars' careers tail off when they reach 40 - even now. It's not such a problem for men, who aren't judged by their looks.

I think that Marilyn had thrown all her energy into getting her job back. But when she succeeded, she realised that it just wasn't enough. She was lonely, and even when things were going well, it didn't change this feeling of being unwanted, unloved, that had been with her since childhood.

Had she lived, I think Marilyn could have gone on to better things. Look at Anne Bancroft in The Graduate, Liz Taylor in Virginia Woolf. Both glamorous stars who proved they could act when the looks faded away. Marilyn might also have become a great humanitarian like Audrey Hepburn did. She was already a great human being.

But to move forward, she first had to conquer her depression and her drug addiction. Which was a very hard battle to win, especially alone.

Maybe that night she wasn't thinking of the future, because the pain of the present was overwhelming. Maybe she just wanted to shut out the world, and stop the hurting. Or perhaps it was a cry for help that went unanswered. My feeling is, it was the world's loss but maybe Marilyn is at peace now. I hope so.
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Amen to all of that yes.gif
sabine
Hi Tara.... bye1.gif ...thoughtful post.
Marilyn's career was at a strange turning point. Her try at a dramatic role had failed (with "the misfits")...her marriage with interlectual Arthur Miller over (which ended any kind of respect for Marilyn from the serious acting circles) and she had returned to the fluff of hollywood movies that she hated. I mean, look at her conduct after her return to hollywood....nude swim scenes, nude photoshoots.....a direct throw-back to the old days Marilyn tried so hard to escape.
I think this upset her, when she realized people were after all only interested in her physical being and that was starting to fade away......
Other actresses, and you mentioned Anne Bancroft, had a chance at a dramatic career because their physical beauty didn't matter all that much. They weren't exactly know for and had built a whole career on their looks.
It was easier for them to switch over. But Marilyn? What was she gonna do?
She must have been petrified to loose everything she hard worked so hard for...and then there was the horrible drugproblem that kept her from persuing things,too. Look how much time she lost on "something's got to give"....that isn't normal. Even if she was 'sick' with a virus....that doesn't excuse that kind of loss of work. Something else was obviously going on besides.

sabine
Tara
Hi Sabine ... I still feel that Marilyn could have turned her life around. She was a fighter. But the drugs and the depression were a vicious circle, very hard to beat. There had been overdoses before, as you point out. I really don't know if something pushed her over the edge that night, or whether it was just a suicidal carelessness. Maybe in her own mind, she just needed to find a way out. And although she had some good friends, there was no husband or children to leave behind.
ariella
QUOTE(ellen @ Jun 10 2005, 03:08 PM)
all that aside sabine it still can't be proven either way whether she was murdered or not.
i respect your feeling's on this subject but nobody know's for sure 100% what happened that night to marilyn as far as murder or not go's.
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Ellen:
I respect your feeelings on this subject though I have a different viewpoint ( I believe after really studying the facts marilyn killed herself) I have a question to ask you:
what are your feelings morally about suiicide? What type of person do you imagine commits suicide?

I ask this because when I first learned about marilyn I of course heard she commiterd suicide. I couldn't believe it because in my mind I had this idea that only crazy people did that. people who had no hope or no belief in God or salvation or...just very general ( and very wrong) ideas...
I wanted an "out" some sort of other explanation to explain away her choice, her decison. To take the responsibility out of her hands, to place that responsibility in someone elses hands.
I wanted to know why she had to die- I didn't want to deal with the fact I would never know why. Suicide leaves everything unanswered. Worst of all we have to grapple with the reality that marilyn didn't have to die that night had she chosen not to overdose. If she would have held on for another night. In the morning, whatever was tormenting her would be better.

With murder we have a reason and a purpose and and answer for her death. And I think murder is more morally acceptable to us than suicide. At least in western culture. So, maybe we make these huge leaps of faith and reality in order to make the pieces fit, pieces that would never fit otherwise. WE loose objectivity and rationale tbhinking. Not because we are gullable or stupid or because we are unreasonable, but because we miss this woman so much, we wish she could have seen in herself what we see in her. Suicide is the act of a deperate hopless faithless being not the act of a loveable vibrant woman who we know had so much to give. KIlling herself that was the ultimate act of self destructin. her belief that her life had no purpose or meaning, that even God himself had abandoned her.

I think suicide is such a frightening thing to people, such a taboo subject we force ourselves to believe in conspiracies and murder because murder is an acceptable death- and it leaves marilyn as a victim worthy of our sympathy. Suicide leaves her responsible and I think maybe deep down in side we don't believe siomeone who is responsible for killing themselves is as symapthetic as somone who dies at the hands of someone else...
ariella
QUOTE(Tara @ Jun 6 2005, 08:33 PM)
Elka, I'm impressed by your knowledge of Joe.  Which biography do you most recommend?
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Sorry it took me over a month to reply ( God how awful!)
There are quite a few biographies out there about Joe. keep in mind the really good ones deal primarily with his life therefore only a few chapters are focused on marilyn and Joe. But first and foremost I recommend:
The New York Dily Newstribute to Joe DiMaggio. This coffee table book was released a few months after Joe's death in 1999. The new York Daily news, one of new Yorks biggest and oldest newspapers, covered Joe's life from the age of 18, when he left his families home in San Fransisco to play for the new york yankees,
until his death some 60 plus years later. the book features reproductions of every interview and photo of Joe that appeared in The pages of The new York Daily news. And boy, was he in their newspaper a lot. There were even several "beat" writers for the daily news whose sole purpose it was to follow Joe and write about what he was doing off the field.
I would say this is a invaluable book because the reader learns about Joe and marilyn first hand, through their own words as their relationship grew and changed over the years. I can honestly say the reader willl come away with a totallly new perspective on what made Joe and marilyn tick ( it's not quite as simplistic as the MM biographers would have it) . The photos are great and the reader also learns why Joe was so popular to begin with long before he met marilyn and why he continued to be an idealized American icon.

I'll put together a list of the best books out there and post them in a bit. Again< I'm so sorry I didn't answer sooner.
ariella
The New York Daily News Tribute To Joe DiMaggio
ellen
hi arellia,you need to read the topic( suicide theories) and read what i wrote on( reasons for commiting suicide) blush.gif
Tara
Thanks Elka, I also have another DiMaggio bio on my list - Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?: The story of America's last hero by Maury Allen. Is this a good one?

I know nothing about baseball (but then neither did Marilyn). It just occurred to me that of all the major figures in Marilyn's life, Joe is the one I know least about. It's his quiet dignity that moves me.
ariella
QUOTE(Tara @ Jul 7 2005, 07:00 PM)
Thanks Elka, I also have another DiMaggio bio on my list -  Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?: The story of America's last hero by Maury Allen. Is this a good one?

I know nothing about baseball (but then neither did Marilyn). It just occurred to me that of all the major figures in Marilyn's life, Joe is the one I know least about. It's his quiet dignity that moves me.
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It's probably the best one out there, Tara. Maury Allen is a very serious, well respercted baseball Historian and he knew Joe quite well. As well as anyone could. It's a hard book to find these days as it's out of print- but you can get it on line at Amazon or an affiliate if you are over seas. I'd also reccomend the A&E biography on Joe DImaggio as there are rare clips ( including a clip of Joe singing in his movie debut- 1939's "Manhatten Merry Go- Round" it's actually very funny as he has this " what on earth am I doing in a movie" expression on his face).


I love your description " quiet dignity" .
Tara
Thanks for your advice Elka bye1.gif
purple-haze
its a shame that even a book about dimaggio turns into a conspiracy book on marilyns death.
Tara
QUOTE(purple-haze @ Nov 13 2005, 09:35 PM) [snapback]92349[/snapback]
its a shame that even a book about dimaggio turns into a conspiracy book on marilyns death.


Yes, I agree with you totally Jo. I feel it is all done to make money. Which is a shame because I think Joe (and Marilyn) deserve more than that. no.gif
njeane77
I'll be interested to read more about June Dimaggio's (Marilyn, Joe and Me) book when it appears in the spring. I've already read the promotional snippets that have appeared in the news and on the web. It worries me that 45 years on June is finally ready to disclose new 'evidence' as to MM's final hours. She says that her mother (Joe's sister) was the last to speak to Marilyn and heard her being murdered after she dropped the telephone receiver. Her mother would never reveal to anyone in the family, including Joe, who the two people were she allegedly heard that night. She kept quiet because "she wanted us to live, she feared for our lives".
I just don't understand, if I had crucial evidence regarding a death of a friend I would tell the police - I would make a fuss about it until someone listened then and there, in 1962, not in 2005. The journalist who has helped to write June's book say's she's uncovered startling evidence (I'll believe it when I see it).

no matter how frightened I was, I would have come forward before now. There seems to be no end of these books at the moment. I guess as there are less and less people who still alive who were actually there, means there are less people to dispute the 'facts'

Sarah-kate
Young
I agree, Njeane77. Why would you keep a secret like that? I could understand her being scared but that's still not a good reason. I also think a lot of people connected to MM are using her death as a way to gain fame and money. All of a sudden, everyone was the "last" person to speak with her.
stickimicki
"Marilyn, addicted to her pills, had taken a substantial amount of her Nembutal earlier that afternoon. In her drowsy drugged up state. She had run a bath. She demanded that her assistant administer her an enema, just as she has on many countless occasions. Marilyn liked her enemas, she felt it cleansed her soul. The doctor having been there earlier that evening had pre-prepared her an nembutal laced enema to help her sleep. Unbeknownst to him that the prescribed enema would follow an already too large self-administered oral dose taken by Ms. Monroe herself. So back to that night. Her assistant must have heeded Marilyn's orders for the enema. Marilyn then asked to be left leave alone for the rest of the night. She would be making a few private calls and then turning in to get some rest. She locked the door, and called Robert. Who knows what must've been said...but I think at that point he had finally had enough of her coy games. She begged to see him one last time, she said that she'd be waiting for him in bed. Suspicious that perhaps this was another one of her 'accidental overdoses', annoyed yet still concerned for her safety, he calls her trusted doctor--whom he despised--to meet him so they could check on Marilyn, who was no longer answering the phone.What happened when they arrived, or how shortly after they left is a mystery that perhaps will never be solved" ~Anonymous


Interesting, this accounts for the drugs not being found in her stomach. The pills she has consumed earlier that day would have surely dissolved by then. This also accounts for her being nude, perhaps she was trying to seduce robert one last time. This also can account why there were reports that Robert and her doctor were seen earlier that evening! VERY INTERESTING THEORY
JanCollector
QUOTE(stickimicki @ Jan 16 2007, 06:45 PM) [snapback]125037[/snapback]
"Marilyn, addicted to her pills, had taken a substantial amount of her Nembutal earlier that afternoon. In her drowsy drugged up state. She had run a bath. She demanded that her assistant administer her an enema, just as she has on many countless occasions. Marilyn liked her enemas, she felt it cleansed her soul. The doctor having been there earlier that evening had pre-prepared her an nembutal laced enema to help her sleep. Unbeknownst to him that the prescribed enema would follow an already too large self-administered oral dose taken by Ms. Monroe herself. So back to that night. Her assistant must have heeded Marilyn's orders for the enema. Marilyn then asked to be left leave alone for the rest of the night. She would be making a few private calls and then turning in to get some rest. She locked the door, and called Robert. Who knows what must've been said...but I think at that point he had finally had enough of her coy games. She begged to see him one last time, she said that she'd be waiting for him in bed. Suspicious that perhaps this was another one of her 'accidental overdoses', annoyed yet still concerned for her safety, he calls her trusted doctor--whom he despised--to meet him so they could check on Marilyn, who was no longer answering the phone.What happened when they arrived, or how shortly after they left is a mystery that perhaps will never be solved" ~Anonymous
Interesting, this accounts for the drugs not being found in her stomach. The pills she has consumed earlier that day would have surely dissolved by then. This also accounts for her being nude, perhaps she was trying to seduce robert one last time. This also can account why there were reports that Robert and her doctor were seen earlier that evening! VERY INTERESTING THEORY


Marilyn always slept naked.
Margherita
QUOTE(sabine @ Jun 9 2005, 03:37 PM) *
The cop that told the story that he stopped a speeding car in the middle of the night with Peter Lawford driving, Bobby Kennedy in the back with Dr. Greenson is FULL OF IT....
First of all, no report was filed.




Not everything is filed. We don't live in so righteous world, that things would allways been done the way they should.

If the police is being given orders not to file, not to have seen somebody/bodies in a car, so it hasn't happened.


And one good question is, that if Marilyn's death was a result of her lifestyle ( but actually she wasn't that unhappy during the last months), then why, beginning from which detail did all of these suspicions start, allready in the beginning, as the LAPD, for instance, labeled her case in their archive as "MURDER" ? Were they mad ? Where did the more or less everyday police investigators get this idea ? Were they "told" or paid to do so ? Were they unprofessionals ?

-------

When it comes to the question, as Sabine asks, "Why would have Marilyn been murdered by Nembutal (or some other drug)?

Personally I can only see that as very logic; of course, if she were murdered, it was very handy and rationalistic to use her own lifestyle to cameo the murder, instead of murdering her by some scandalous method, like a mysterious automobile accident before the alleged press conference or shooting her etc.

- - -- - - --

Nancy
I honestly don't believe in any of these conspiracy theories, all the scandal and drama... it's just that IMO, a highly glamourised legend that has snowballed over the decades, with outright fabrications and misinterpretations and half truths.

Of course, I suppose anything is possible, but I think the truth is much more simple. I think it was an accidental overdose, and nothing more.
abeautifulchild
QUOTE(jemaniac @ May 25 2007, 08:55 PM) *
I honestly don't believe in any of these conspiracy theories, all the scandal and drama... it's just that IMO, a highly glamourised legend that has snowballed over the decades, with outright fabrications and misinterpretations and half truths.

Of course, I suppose anything is possible, but I think the truth is much more simple. I think it was an accidental overdose, and nothing more.



Well, said! Took the words right out of my mouth.
mmmMarilyn
ME TOO! everybody always asks me about her death and I just say that. Plain and simple, accident. People will say and believe what they want, and that is what I say and believe!
dwane
i beleive that jfk had marilyn murdered, plain and simple.
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