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Everlasting Star Community > The experts' lounge > Marilyn's mysterious death > General discussion
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sabine
Ok, so we heard it all...Bobby kennedy sneaking by neighbor's windows (unsubstantiated second hand story), sometimes accompanied by a man with a medical handbag (ok, can they call any more attention to themselves??)...
We hear over and over how the Kennedys were involved in Marilyn's death....everything from Bobby Kennedy smothering Marilyn with a pillow during a violent struggle (Marilyn died from a drugoverdose not smothering and there was only one bruise on her body)....to a hitman had been sent to 'take care' of Marilyn.....

One thing is sure: Marilyn died from an overdose of Nembutal (her bloodcount closely matches the amount of Nembutal she bought on the sly the day before her death..keep this in mind) and chloral hydrate, drugs Marilyn had abundently on hand. So HOW exactly did the Kennedys kill her?
What was the method of this killing???

I hear a lot about a Kennedy involvement but very few ever talk about how they actually killed her. How did they manage to kill Marilyn? And where are the signs of homicide?

Marilyn being murdered with the very substance she happened to buy the day before? Isn't this too much of a stretch no matter what theory we are entertaining?

This i would like to hear ~Sabine~
ellen
hi sabine im staying out of this one lol biggrin.gif
sabine
Aha!!!! smart girl..... coolio.gif
But you see the dilemma, right????
Most homocides involve either guns,knives or bare hands...not Nembutal.

sabine
ellen
yeah i'm smart jumpymm.gif
chris
if I can add something
Personally and after reading some books I believe that Robert Kennedy was in Los Angeles and that he went in Marilyn's but only at the beginning of the afternoon
I think that after this visit Marilyn was very angry and that Bobby was back to Gilroy
I can't imagine the motive for a murde by the Kennedy
What are your interests???
I believe that they only wanted to delete all the prrofs that they were in contact with her and by that they attire attention on some wrong things
It is only my own advice
Chris
sabine
Hey chris.....i do not believe Bobby kennedy was at marilyn's house that last day....why would the man bother? Then you'd have to asume that marilyn was somehow important to the kennedys and i don't think she was. She had a brief affair with the President and it ended, probobly prematurely for Marilyn and she hung on for a while. She liked moving in the Kennedy circle and didn't want to let that go. Anyways, they had cut her off cold months before she died....why would Bobby bother going there now, especially interupting his precious time and holiday.....to do what? Talk to Marilyn? A phonecall could have done just fine.
You know, i honestly feel that the kennedys weren't involved at all because quite frankly, they could have given a s*** about her at that time....
There might have been a phonecall to her however...who knows.....that upset her enough that Dr. Greenson had to come over for a mega-session.
But you what? marilyn was definetly not all together rational at times and she had many psychological probems (and then the Pills)....maybe that was the norma that Greenson saw her for extended periods of time.....that day was just a bad day...an extra bad day, ya know?
Anyways....there just isn't enough evidence for me that proves a Kennedy involvement.....but i do think they added to her terrible depression being dumped like that.....but Marilyn also knew what she was getting into...she must have.
What a mess! huh.gif


sabine
chris
I'm totally agree when you declare that " there just isn't enough evidence for me that proves a Kennedy involvement" but I'm still believe that Kennedy went to LA on that day
They are some declarations to proove that even if they are not "witnesses eyes " ( Sam Yorty, Woods, Patricia Seaton Lawford and even Milton Greene I was suprised to read that on the book!!)
and don't forget that the list of Marilyn's phone calls dissapeared
For that it is not even The Los Angeles Police Chief was be able to do that but a person very very most important
I think that the Kennedys were not really implicated on Marilyn's death but to make do somethings like that they attire the attention of all the people
It's only my own advice
Chris
crash32002
In "The Last Days of Marilyn Monroe" by Donald Wolfe, he writes about Bobby being in LA that day. I believe several people saw him go in and out of a hotel, and I also remember reading something about a helicopter flight or something along thoes lines. It had a lot of information regarding the "Kennedy involment." You should read it for more information...
brandonheidrick
All I have to say is that if you can kill the President of the United States in PUBLIC, blow his brains all over his wive's pink dress ... and then blame it on a lone gunman in a book depositry ... then how difficult would it be to kill a lonely blonde woman at the end of a cul de sac ... and use suicide as a cover. The police at the crime scene said that it took 4 hours between the discovery of her body to the time they were called, that the body had been moved, the room had been cleaned, the housekeeper was doing laundry with a dead body down the hall, the room was not taped off as a crime scene, people came and went freely through that room as though there wasn't even a dead body in it, there was no trace of any sleeping pills in her digestive track, it was all in her liver and blood and in levels so high that she couldn't have ingested it orally because she'd have died long before that toxity level could have been absorbed .." ... lab samples disappeared before tests could be run, on and on and on. The people that were there the day she died ... Eunice Murray came into some money somehow and disappeared off to Europe after Marilyn's death ... Pat Newcomb, Marilyn's publicist went off on the Kennedy yacht a few weeks after Marilyn's passing, was photographed wearing Jack's coat, and then she was given a job across the hall from Bobby in the White House. People are murdered every day and the murderer gets away with it ... if they have fame or money or both, they can do anything.
Nina
thumbup1.gif I totally agree with you on this, Brandon. Those are my thoughts too and I think the same. You only said it much better as I ever could!

tbird.gif
sabine
Hi chris....well, i feel it's important that the witnesses be actual 'eyewitnesses'....bcause otherwise i could tell you i saw Bobby kennedy that day and i'd be lying. rolleyes1.gif
The phonerecords simply dissapeared to cover up for a Kennedy involvement (Marilyn, after all, had an involvement with the presdient of the united states). This does not prove a kennedy ivolvement in homicide, simply their wish to remain private.]

Hi crash...i've read "last days of marilyn monroe' inside and out, front to back and probobly back again. And it is the biggest waste of my time. No sources, no 'real witnesses', no proof of anything, just some fantasy served up by the author. Wolfe believes marilyn died by "Dr. greenson's big neddle"...arghhh, my pet peeve!.... angry.gif ....did you read THAT?

Hi brandonheidrick....a lot of what you're saying came actually from Slatzer or Sgt. Clemmons (a cop that apparently had communications issues with his superiors or even fellow cops on the scene because he never communicated any of his concerns to them)....i have mayor issues with anything sgt. clemmons had to say because he jumped unto the conspiracy bandwagon without knowing diddly squat about Marilyn's lifestyle before making his "asumptions".....to say this was somehow murder you'd have to tell me how the drugs got into marilyn's body...how did they do it? eyebrow.gif As far as Pat newcomb going on a boat with the kennedys and mrs. murray 'running off' to europe...everyhting can be seen from two sides. What you see as sinister i see simple as the houskeeper wanting to get away after such a shock and pat newcomb surrounding herself with a circle of friends that most likely had nothing at all to do with marilyn's death.



sabine bye1.gif
sabine
PS: And i still haven't heard how Marilyn was 'murdered'.....how was it actually done?

In "the last days of marilyn monroe" the author actually can't make up his mind. He implicates the Kennedys (just because Slatzer had a heavy hand in this book) but then brings forth his own theory that marilyn died by an injection into the heart given by Dr. Greenson. This is completely unfounded.

And brendan, i wanted to adresse directly what you said in your post: here it is:

"there was no trace of any sleeping pills in her digestive track, it was all in her liver and blood and in levels so high that she couldn't have ingested it orally because she'd have died long before that toxity level could have been absorbed .."

Brendan, this statement is wrong (sorry)....the livercount is simply an accumulation of drugs taken over time and stored in the liver for some time. The bloodcount tells us, however, that one large dose was taken at once. Latest toxocologist reports show that the bloodcount was made of about 24 nembutals and 8 chloral hydrates. These pills, when taken at once, would disolve in under 10 minutes in the stomach. They did not need to be 'digested' as food does because there is nothing within those pills to 'break down', they simply liquify very quickly. Marilyn's stomach lining was hermorraging...bleeding....that means something huge had passed thru there shortly before her death.

Ok, guys....i don't want to get into a huge discussion back and forth but i do want to say one thing: whenever people believe authors such as wolfe or slatzer or any of those conspiracy guys i feel that..
a, innocent people are being accused of things they didn't do and slandered
b, and money is being pulled out of our pockets

It makes me quite sick

If you don't believe me....read "the last days of marilyn monroe" and try, just try, to come away with one piece of concrete evidence about their various theories (they can't even make up their own minds for pete's sake...was it the kennedys or the big needle???) and let me know when you do.

sabine
suusmarie
QUOTE(sabine @ May 23 2005, 02:24 PM)
Ok, guys....i don't want to get into a huge discussion back and forth but i do want to say one thing: whenever people believe authors such as wolfe or slatzer or any of those conspiracy guys i feel that..
a, innocent people are being accused of things they didn't do and slandered
b, and money is being pulled out of our pockets

It makes me quite sick

sabine
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I tend to agree with Sabine here yes.gif . I have read every book in my collection and yes whenever there are 'wild murder' theories, they usally come from authors like Wolfe, Slatzer, Speriglio, Summers, Mailer and others of whom we know we can not trust every claim they make thumbdown.gif !
And where the Kennedy´s are concerned...I do not believe any involvment by them, not because they weren´t able to but because I think they had no reason what so ever huh.gif ! And as someone pointed out before...if the Kennedy´s had to eliminate all the girls they ever slept with there would have been no woman left laugh.gif !! No, this MM-JFK story just keeps on selling books and that might be the main reason for the story still persisting mf_tongue.gif !
I foolishly thought after Spoto´s book that the story would die down a little or atleast seen in a different light but alas...the stories linger on no.gif!

hug.gif Suus
crash32002
QUOTE(suusmarie @ May 23 2005, 06:18 PM)
QUOTE(sabine @ May 23 2005, 02:24 PM)
Ok, guys....i don't want to get into a huge discussion back and forth but i do want to say one thing: whenever people believe authors such as wolfe or slatzer or any of those conspiracy guys i feel that..
a, innocent people are being accused of things they didn't do and slandered
b, and money is being pulled out of our pockets

It makes me quite sick

sabine
[snapback]78858[/snapback]



I tend to agree with Sabine here yes.gif . I have read every book in my collection and yes whenever there are 'wild murder' theories, they usally come from authors like Wolfe, Slatzer, Speriglio, Summers, Mailer and others of whom we know we can not trust every claim they make thumbdown.gif !
And where the Kennedy´s are concerned...I do not believe any involvment by them, not because they weren´t able to but because I think they had no reason what so ever eyebrow.gif ! And as someone pointed out before...if the Kennedy´s had to eliminate all the girls they ever slept with there would have been no woman left laugh.gif !! No, this MM-JFK story just keeps on selling books and that might be the main reason for the story still persisting mf_tongue.gif !
I foolishly thought after Spoto´s book that the story would die down a little or atleast seen in a different light but alas...the stories linger on no.gif!

hug.gif Suus
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While I'm sure the Kennedy's slept with a lot of women in their days. I highly doubt they told every woman classified information.

Marilyn had the power to expose them. Make their affair public.

I don't know if they were acutally involved, but I do believe the reason was there.
Nina
I think the difference is simply that some women are sly enough not to talk about their bed stories and some are not. I mean have you ever heard a bed-story of one of the many women he (JFK) should have had in his bed?

Maybe (and I say only maybe) Marilyn was a woman, who couldn't stand over it and was *p* off to be used any longer... and maybe it was something, that either JFK or RFK hadn't expected...

Just a thought
tbird.gif
Asia
As much as I don't like both of the them, I don't believe any of them killed her. If only because neither John or Bobby would bother, or risk being spotted by somebody. They were well respected, more than Marilyn, and had high social position and they knew it. I doubt whether they saw Marilyn as a potential threat or anything. To do so, they would have had to take her seriously, and I bet they didn't. It's just some kind of a myth.
crash32002
Even if JFK or Bobby didn't have respect for Marilyn, I'm sure they would've still considered her a threat, when and if she had threatened to expose their affair to the public. Why else would they have ended the affair? It could've hurt their high social position.

I'm still not saying that they Kennedy brothers had a part in Marilyn's death, but I still strongly believe the motive could've been there...
Tara
If Marilyn had gone public about her affair, it would not only have damaged the Kennedys. It would have destroyed her as well. Look at Monica Lewinsky, or in England, Christine Keeler. It is always the woman who gets the blame, and even more so forty years ago. Jackie Kennedy was beloved by many people, and Marilyn would be painted as a home-wrecker, maybe even a risk to national security.

Maybe in a desperate moment, Marilyn might have threatened to 'tell all'. But I like to think she was way too smart to go through with it, because she knew all too well how the press can turn on you. Personally, I don't think she was murdered. I think her death was either an accident or suicide. But you never know what goes on in high places, so I guess it is a remote possibility.
Asia
Even if she had gone public with it, people would have had to believe her, and I'm sure JFK wouldn't have admitted it and would have denied. It's easy to say sth, but you have to have some proofs to convince people, back up your theory or anytihng. She was smart, so she know it'd just make her look pathetic. And I agree with Tara. Everybody loved Jackie. Personally, I really admire her for putting up with such and idiot for this long. biggrin.gif
Of course, there would be a scandal, but it would ended up worse for her. And they were smart too, surrounded be armies of advisers, so they knew it, either. .
sabine
Guys....the 'going public' with it thing comes from SLATZER...and only Slatzer.
Marilyn was an intensily private person....would she have really 'spilled the beans', so to speak, when she was actually the homewrecker??? It would have made her look really bad. maybe even more than the President. Look at Monika Lewinksy, that's right...she's a joke now. (Sorry to say).
Marilyn would have never taken such a risk. She was a moviestar. She's not gonna go publicly whining over a broken love affair. Comon now!

Now, anyways...the BIG question remains...IF the Kennedys had hand in her death....HOW DID THEY KILL HER?
How come no conspiracy theory clears this simple question up??
Marilyn died from a drugoverdose....not the usual method to kill somebody....
how did the drugs get into her system?

The rumours persist because of shady characters writing books they have no business writing. They don't actually believe their own stuff but they sure count their dollarbills once they put this crap into print. Like i said before, i am sick of it.

The conspiracy people also totally ignore Marilyn's problems and lifestyle that led up to her death.


sabine
Nina
I count myself to the conspiracy people because other people haven't done their job well back in August 1962, her death was for me no suicide - otherwise we wouldn't have to talk about these thousand of questions - there wouldn't be any unsolved question (maybe only one and that would be why?) if this was a 100% suicide.
Asia
We talk about this, because we don't know some facts from that night, they are some inaccuracies, questions and because it's part of her legend, but it all doesn't mean that it wasn't a suicide. It's one of the possibilities, and we'll never know for sure one way or another.

Besides, noone says it was 100% suicide.
Nina
Asia, was your post a reply to mine? (If so) I mean with 100% suicide that no matter what's written on the autopsy, death-certificate or whatever... she remains as Hollywood biggest star, who eventually or possibly (or whatever) commited suicide - and I don't believe it. Not, because she wouldn't do this, but because all the stuff around doesn't fit with this "suicide" storie - if it would, there wouldn't be any open questions.

sadballerina.gif
Asia
QUOTE(Nina @ May 26 2005, 09:44 PM)
Asia, was your post a reply to mine? (If so) I mean with 100% suicide that no matter what's written on the autopsy, death-certificate or whatever... she remains as Hollywood biggest star, who eventually or possibly (or whatever) commited suicide - and I don't believe it. Not, because she wouldn't do this, but because all the stuff around doesn't fit with this "suicide" storie - if it would, there wouldn't be any open questions.

sadballerina.gif
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Yeah.
I'm not saying there's no possibility she was killed, but that the possibility of her suicide can't be denied, for we don't know what really happened, and where lies the truth. So, it just can't be stated she didn't kill herself, becasue of the events associated with her death.

And I truly believe open questions can surface no matter the circumanstances, even in the most obvious cases. I'm of the opinion that people can make some things more complicated they truly are, thus the facts are the most important.

Personally, I don't know what to think about her death. I'm very ambivalent about it. I find it very mysterious, for me it'll remain unsolved unless some new evidences show up....

And I'm still not sure if I got your point on this in the right way.
Tara
I also find it hard to believe that Bobby would have disclosed classified information to Marilyn. I know that Marilyn liked to talk politics, but I think the discussion would have been very general. He would have to be either careless or stupid to share government secrets with a girlfriend.

I agree with Sabine's point that a drug overdose is a very risky method of killing someone. Marilyn had a very high tolerance, so it could have backfired. After all, she had survived before. What if she had lived to tell the tale?

Marilyn had a history of overdoses, some of which may have been suicide attempts. In some ways her death was an accident waiting to happen. But then, I suppose conspiracy theorists would argue that it was easy to make her death look like suicide.
sabine
Ok, every so called 'question' in this case can actually be answered in a logical way. The problem is that the case has been so convoluted with the wrong facts and people's conspiracy theories that have no proof whatsoever, this makes it hard to get a grip on what really happened.
Remember THIS:
Marilyn died from an overdose of Nembutal. SHE bought the Nembutal. IF it was murder, how weird is it that she would be murdered with Nembutal, of all things?
Is that not weird? It is to me and much to much of a strange coincidence.
Furthermore, people don't get murdered via drugoverdoses. Comon now!
Marilyn came close to overdosing many times in her Life before she actually died...why is it so hard to believe that she would one day die from her drugabuse?
As far as murdering Marilyn...what's the MOTIVE?
If you believe in a pressconference you've been had by Slatzer. If you believe in a Kennedy connection period, you've been had by people like slatzer and speriglio, a hollywood 'detective' and conspiracy author.
FIND THE SOURCE OF THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES....go way back and see where they originated and you will soon see.....Robert Slatzer, Milo Speriglio and a couple of others like them. And they are Liars. Proven Liars.

Sabine
sabine
PS: And STILL i have not heard HOW they actually killed Marilyn.....if you have a conspiracy theory tell me how it was done.


sabine
Asia
QUOTE(sabine @ May 27 2005, 04:58 PM)
Ok, every so called 'question' in this case can actually be answered in a logical way. The problem is that the case has been so convoluted with the wrong facts and people's conspiracy theories that have no proof whatsoever, this makes it hard to get a grip on what really happened.
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This is exactly what I meant. Couldn't have word myself better.
brandonheidrick
What about the enema theory that was raised in Spoto's biography? Maybe it wasn't a murder, maybe it was an accidental overdose administered by a housekeeper that had no true medical training, and the result of two conflicting prescriptions of quack doctors who didn't pay close attention to what medications she was taking ...
crash32002
WILLIAMS: 'KENNEDYS DIDN'T MURDER MONROE'

American crooner ANDY WILLIAMS has rubbished reports former US President JOHN F KENNEDY murdered screen goddess MARILYN MONROE.

The 77-year-old MOON RIVER singer was a close pal of the controversial premiere and his brother ROBERT - both of whom were romantically linked to Monroe - and despite a long-standing conspiracy theory surrounding the tragic star's death, he's dismissed the possibility of the Kennedys' involvement.

He says, "I know Robert had an affair with Marilyn but he was not involved in her death. That would never happen.

"I don't think she was murdered anyway. She was very unstable and she'd tried committing suicide before."

27/05/2005 14:02
meganmarilyn
I think what happened was Marliyn took her pills that evening or afternoon, and when Greenson arrived, she was probably angry over Bobby or not getting Bobby on the phone or whatever the case may have been, and Greenson somehow got her to take more pills. Probably not knowing how much Marilyn had taken beforehand. Only Marilyn knew her tolerance level of pills. And we know she needed alot to have any effectiveness on her. I just think it was an accident. And Greenson or whoever was there, knew when she wouldn't come out of her coma state and then died, made it look like a suicide. Papers and anything relating to the Kennedy's were taken and destroyed. Well never know the true story. But obviously people there that knew what happened never told the true story. So they were hidding something they did not want the public to know.
sabine
Let's put the ludicrous enema theory to rest right here and now.....medically, the discoloration that many conspiracy people point toward as proof that this killer enema took place was located on the OUTSIDE of the colon wall, as well as higher up, closer to the entestines. Had it been a killer enema the opening of the colon would have been affected and the discoloration would have been on the INSIDE....furthermore, Spoto is off his rocker with that one. His book is pretty good untill he get's to the end and he needs his own 'theory', one that he has absolutely no proof for.
But here is the kicker...ready???
He claims that Greenson and Murray tried to keep Marilyn permanently sedated so she wouldn't FIRE them.....huh???
Marilyn had other people in her life that surely would have noticed something like this....besides...how long would this have gone on?? Crazy....
ANd i doubt highly that Greenson or Murray needed their jobs THAT BAD, especially Greenson. Comon now!
I smell a Rat....a big one.... no.gif


sabine bye1.gif
sabine
It wasn't an accident either....Marilyn's bloodstream shows that one big dose was taken at once.
Marilyn did take more drugs during the day, that's what's in the liver. But the dose that killed her was taken orally in one big swoop....
Here is my biggest arguement for this:

Marilyn bought the drugs that killed her HERSELF behind Greenson's back.
The bloodstream contained a large dose, meaning it was taken at once.
Her stomach lining was BLEEDING.
Marilyn had been depressed and suicidal (she nearly overdosed both in June and July of '62...a lot of people don't realize this).

If it walks like a duck, looks like a Duck....it's a duck


Sabine

IMPORTANT:

PS: Had it been an 'accident', the level of drugs in the bloodstream wouldn't have been as high. Marilyn's sytem would have had time to rid itself of some of the drugs. The very fact that the level was so high points directly to ONE LARGE DOSE, taken at once.
This puts the theory that Marilyn 'forgot' how much she took, to rest.
Every conspiracy theory can be disproven completely exept for suicide.
Hey listen, i don't LIKE the suicide verdict....yes, it bothers me...but i can not ignore the obvious just because it bothers me.
As far as a Kennedy involvement...it is highly unlikely that they had Marilyn killed with the very substance she had purchased herself the day before. Wayyyy to weird of a coincidence.
Instead of wasting my time with conspiracy theories and trying to make them fit with a crowbar, i'd rather find out what drove Marilyn to commit this act upon herself. That's the real question for me.
sabine
Gosh, i have one more thing to say:

Instead of harping on Greenson or the Kennedys let's identify the REAL culprit...the one person REALLY responsible for Marilyn's plight....this might come as a suprise but it's Dr. Engelberg.
I strongly believe he kept Marilyn's drugabuse going...behind Greenson's back, i might add.
First of, he made all those housecalls to Marilyn where he injected her with 'vitamins'....yeah right.
More importantly though, he LIED on record that he didn't give Marilyn chloral hydrate and his name was found on the bottle. HUGE, right??
And the kick in the pants is: he prescribed the Nembutal for Marilyn that killed her even though Greenson was trying to ween her off.
HOW ABOUT THEM APPLES??? no.gif


sabine
meganmarilyn
So now you have it not being an accident either? Why don't you just go out and hold your own press conference too! Just kidding, LOL! I stand that only Marilyn knew her own tolerance level. And she had overdosed before in the past, only to have her stomach pumped and that brought her back.
Asia
Come to think of it, if she knew her tolernace level she wouldn't have overdosed by accident. I don't think it's something we can't control, still. If she had taken that amount of medicine on that night, she didn't do it just for sake of taking them.
meganmarilyn
I have read accounts of her taking too many pills before. One was early 1950 (I think it was right after Johnny Hyde died). Can't confirm this, since it was in a book I read. I could be wrong on the dates. But I know that she did take her capsule pills, and punctured them for the ingrediants instead of swallowing the entire pill capsule. That way they would hit her faster than waiting for them to digest in her stomach.

Also, it is known that she said to someone in 1962, about the effectiveness of the pills, and that she had to take more and more for her to feel anything. (And Elvis himself, had the same effect, with his members of the Mafia, trying to reduce the intake of his own dosage, by them trying to reduce his by lessoning his levels when he asked for the pills.)
brandonheidrick
There was a documentary on Discovery Health Channel, Marilyn Monroe Medical Secrets, which I was a part of ... you'll see my name in the credits. (Tooting my own horn.) For my participation I was supposed to have been sent a copy of the program ... still waiting! LOL! It's only been a year or so! HA!

But anyway ...

In it, they had a medical expert re-examine her death. He used a glass "stomach" and filled it with synthetic digestive enzymes, and then slowly added nembutol sleeping pills in several different ways ... and timed how long it took for them to dissolve. He did several experiments, one where he added 3 pills and then waited about and hour added 3 more ... waited a little while, added more ... using the idea that maybe she'd forgotten she'd taken 3 already and took 3 more later that evening because she was on an adrenaline high or stressed out and forgot how many she'd taken. He came to the conclusion that it could have been an accidental overdose because the pills did digest rather fast ...

HOWEVER ... the one thing this investigator forgot to really take into consideration was the tolerance level she had built up! 2 pills may knock me out in 10 minutes, but Marilyn ... it could have taken her 6 or 7 or 8 pills to have the same effect 2 would have had on me.

He also did an experiment where he put a whole bottle of her pills in the glass stomach and came to the conclusion that it could have also been a deliberate suicide after getting the results from that.

Whatever it was ... a suicide, accidental or deliberate ... the death scene didn't add up, and there was something very suspicious going on. Her body had been moved, which is obvious in the fact that lavidity of her blood had sat in different locations on the body, which is evidence of the body being moved as the blood was setteling in the lowest points.

Her bedroom was wiped clean, was very tidy ... not the typical overdose bedroom. The body and the bedroom just did not fit the scene of a drug overdose ... and whether we believe Clemmons or not, that's a fact ... It was all handled unprofessionally ... and there is something WRONG.

Maybe she wasn't murdered by the Kennedy's ... maybe she wasn't murdered by the negligence of 2 doctors and an unliscensed nurse maid ... maybe she was. Things can be falsified, people can be bought or threatened into saying whatever ...

But I will give ya kuddos Sabine, you have made me seriously reconsider the whole murder angle ...

One thing that can't be denied ... it is on RECORD. Dr. Engelberg had given her a chloral hydrate shot just 2 or 3 days prior to her death. It can be verified by a bill and a check he'd tried to cash that was returned because she had died. Now if he'd given her a shot just days before, how come the needle mark was not found during the autopsy? Needle marks heal, yes, but in 3 days no sign of an old needle mark was to be found?

I believe too many cooks spoil the pot ... and the 2 doctors weren't working WITH eachother, but against eachother ... and they weren't fully aware of what the other was doing.

I tend to stick by the murder theory because that's the first thing I read about her and it made a lasting impression that's hard to shake ... sometimes I need to readjust my thinking ... but no matter what, I don't feel she was completely responsible for her death. I believe that someone else was involved somehow, intentional or not, and that they covered their tracks and lied.
ellen
hey brandon just watched this on discovery tonight,really interesting but as soon as the guy came on and said "there's no furniture or pictures in this bedroom which is common with that of a drug user"i switched off sleepingmm2.gif .nothing to do with recently buying a house and not having recieved furniture yet?


and what's to say someone didn't stand in front of marilyn with a shot gun and say eat these pills or we'll blow your head off,i am not saying this happened but just because she took them all at the same time doesn't mean she wanted to.
i think that's about all can be proved is that they all went down at once.
why the cover up ?like my mum say's there's no smoke without fire
brandonheidrick
Yeah, I know I was annoyed and disappointed with the direction the documentary went. It wasn't how I expected, but ... I wasn't in charge, I was only helping.

As for her bedroom, that's how I felt too ... they didn't take into consideration she'd just moved in and was redecorating ... but then all the same, you have to look at it outside of that and see that yeah ... empty bare rooms, regardless of whether or not you've just moved ... they sure do tend to make one feel even more isolated and depressed. And Marilyn did have time to do some things with her room ... there were no photos or anything really personal or homey about her bedroom ... it was like a hospital room in comparison to most bedrooms. Very empty and bare ...
ellen
i remember reading somewhere that after marilyn had died a wardrobe was delivered which she had ordered in mexico and was for her bedroom,was she just too busy with the rest of the house,garden,somethings gotta give and she'd been ill.was there more furniture on order?
i don't know i don't buy it, i think they make too much of it,and like you say too much went on that night and the cover up was for a reason and it wasn't that marilyn had commited suicide
sabine
Megan, it is impossible to take 32 some pills "accidentally"...and had she forgotten she took some and took more, and then more again, she would have long passed out before her blood could reach that level.
That's all....


sabine
sabine
And Brandan: Quote from you: HOWEVER ... the one thing this investigator forgot to really take into consideration was the tolerance level she had built up! 2 pills may knock me out in 10 minutes, but Marilyn ... it could have taken her 6 or 7 or 8 pills to have the same effect 2 would have had on me.



Sabine: At a certain level tolerance isn't gonna matter. You are gonna die. Marilyn didn't take 7 or 8 pills...she took at least 32 pills. That is an over the top lethal dose that nobody can survivie, even with incredible tolerance. Had she taken them spaced out over time...maybe...doubtful though...but she didn't space them out because they were ALL in her bloodstream.
sabine
Marilyn's bedroom....GUYS...they were absolutely right on the discovery channel...and Marilyn did not just move in.....she had moved in in February, she died in August....that is not "just moved in"....take another close look at her bedroom. It was bare and sloppy. Just like her apt. in L.A. before that.
A big bed and little else. Her nightstand littered with pillbottels. You betcha that's a person with problems. She didn't have ONE picture of friends or family in her room, no pictures even on the walls, stuff just thrown to the ground.....
I do not see what you guys see......i see a problem.
Also, BRENDAN.....you want to stick with a murder theory because that was your first thought??? Comon now, look at everything over and over, let it sink in.....if you can come up with real proof of murder, let me know.
In the meantime, leave room for change.....i thought in the very beginning the Kennedys might be involved but after years of research i never found an inkling of proof. But EVERYTHING points toward suicide and i can't help it. My brain keeps going back to that because in the end it's the only thing that makes sense and the only thing that actually has proof. I can't help it.


sabine

PS: By the way, the discovery people did a fantastic job. Of course conspiracy people won't like it because it shows that the empty stomach can be explained, it discredits the enema and the "big needle" theory, it makes conspiracy author Donald Wolfe look like the biggest Fool.....i wouldn't like that either. hehehe
meganmarilyn
So you say 32. But then again that is only an estimate. I don't rule out that one of her doctors gave her more after she was taking pills earlier that day. And like you have been discounting everyone else's theories, you too and I were not there that evening, and we do not know how much she was taking or was given by someone else.



QUOTE(sabine @ May 29 2005, 02:30 PM)
Megan, it is impossible to take 32 some pills "accidentally"...and had she forgotten she took some and took more, and then more again, she would have long passed out before her blood could reach that level.
That's all....


sabine
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meganmarilyn
LOL! You see a problem? I've seen a problem with her from the day she was born. Do you think she was having major problems when she was dealing with her non family social order with her foster upringing, or orphanage stay, or her being raped at a young age? I would say that was more intense problems for her to deal with that not having any pictures on walls or furniture in a home she was now living in. If you call it a home. Let's see one of us have her celebrity status and decide what is NORMAL problems.


QUOTE(sabine @ May 29 2005, 02:45 PM)
Marilyn's bedroom....GUYS...they were absolutely right on the discovery channel...and Marilyn did not just move in.....she had moved in in February, she died in August....that is not "just moved in"....take another close look at her bedroom. It was bare and sloppy. Just like her apt. in L.A.  before that.
A big bed and little else. Her nightstand littered with pillbottels. You betcha that's a person with problems. She didn't have ONE picture of friends or family in her room, no pictures even on the walls, stuff just thrown to the ground.....
I do not see what you guys see......i see a problem.
Also, BRENDAN.....you want to stick with a murder theory because that was your first thought??? Comon now, look at everything over and over, let it sink in.....if you can come up with real proof of murder, let me know.
In the meantime, leave room for change.....i thought in the very beginning the Kennedys might be involved but after years of research i never found an inkling of proof.  But EVERYTHING points toward suicide and i can't help it.  My brain keeps going back to that because in the end it's the only thing that makes sense and the only thing that actually has proof. I can't help it.


sabine

PS: By the way, the discovery people did a fantastic job. Of course conspiracy people won't like it because it shows that the empty stomach can be explained, it discredits the enema and the "big needle" theory, it makes conspiracy author Donald Wolfe look like the biggest Fool.....i wouldn't like that either.  hehehe
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sabine
Hi megan.....no, i wasn't there. Thank god or else i might be accused of something now...hehehehe.
The 32 pills is NOT my estimate but the figure came about by the latest testing by a professional toxocologist, not me. before that people simply guessed at the figure.
You think the doctors maybe gave her more pills.....ok, how? Orallly? HOW do you make somebody take an overdose on purpose?
Had she taken a little first and then Greenson gave her a lot more, he would have been aware that the dose would kill her. And again, we have the problem of MAKING somebody take an overdose.....
Did she take the big dose first and then greenson gave her a little bit later? Problem...marilyn would have died earlier in the day from a big dose of pills.....this just doesn't work.
The dose in Marilyn's bloodstream was simply TOO LARGE to explain away accidentally.
Did Greenson give Marilyn a killer enema?
Again, this is very unlikely....and the colon discoloration was on the OUTSIDE of the colon and not at the inside of the colonwall and it also wasn't near the colon opening where a enema would take place.
I am disscounting the murder theories because the pieces do not fit. No other reason. I don't get paid to believe in the suicide theory....i simply came to the conclusion after carefully examining all facts and then concluding the most likely answer. I put my personnal feelings aside (i do not like the suicide verdict but what can I do?).....weigh all the facts and see which theory holds up.

sabine


PS: and why would anybody follow theories that were hashed out by slatzer and wolfe, speriglio and others like them, anyways?
sabine
Guys, this might be confusing to you all but i do not like the suicide conclusion. I would rather marilyn had died accidentally or by (intriguelingly) some kind of homicide....well, actually i do not like the fact that she died so young, at all. And realizing (at least for me) she most likely did this to herself really bothers me.
But i can not see an explanation for her death elsewhere....i mean, look:

Marilyn's bedsite table was littered with pillbottels (so many drugs...for a young, otherwise healthy individual of 36....doesn't this strike you guys as totally out of control? i am 40 and barely take an Advil, for god's sake. Ok, i know some people here will have illnesses so don't throw this at me...marilyn's pillconsumption and quantity of pills was over the top, any way you slice it).

Marilyn bought the nembutal that killed her HERSELF (this has been ignored by conspiracy people...WHY? Marilyn bought the drugs that killed her...this is important. The very same drugs found in her bloodstream later. This can not be a homicide. it is rediculous to think that marilyn would have been murdered by the very substance she bought. Anybody else here think this is too much to swallow?? No pun intended.)

Marilyn had nearly overdosed twice before she died. In June and in July. (Greenson had to be called back from a overseas trip because Marilyn was nearly comatosed in her bedroom and Pat newcomb nor Mrs. Murray could do little to stop Marilyn. In July marilyn suposedly nearly oderdosed at the Cal Neva. This is a woman in trouble......)

There simply is no motive for homicide and it could not have been an accident (the dose was too large to have been an accident and lack of motive for homicide is strong. Why would anybody want Marilyn dead? No, really....why?
The kennedy thing? Big deal....Kennedy slept around. A pressconference? A Slatzer factoid, not worth anything since he is a proven Liar....so, where's the motive? A doctor and housekeeper that were about to get fired? or revenge?
How about marilyn simply didn't want to live anymore after a couple of awful years of emotional pain? I even have a vintage magazine from '61 PREDICTING HER SUICIDE. Awful to read but it shows you what was going on....

Sorry for being so chatty sabine rolleyes1.gif
ellen
hi sabine just wondered if you could print or scan the magazine article from1961,i really want to see it thanks ellen x
sabine
Hi Ellen....i am sorry but i don't have a scanner right now....i will tell you which magazine and i will type up some of the text..(it's kinda corny but remember, this was 1961)

It's HUSH-HUSH Magazine from July of 1961. The cover has Marilyn from the premiere of "The misfits" (january 1961) and the headline reads:

THE BIG SMASH-UP OF MARILYN MONROE

Page 31:"....this exclusive report will, for the first time, take you behind the 'iron curtain' of lies and fakery that press agents, columnists and false friends have erected around the glamour girl of the age.
A real shock is in store for the countless sex-minded fans and admirers of this symbol of everything that's naughty but nice....
Because the real reason marilyn was rushed to the hospital (Payne whitney) was that HER BEST FRIENDS WERE AFRAID SHE WAS GOING TO COMMIT SUICIDE.
(Note; They print it boldly in the article as well).
To prevent this tragedy in the life of the tempestuous temptress, MM's closest friends hustled her in emergency fashion into the Payne Whitney psychiatric clinic in manhattan....
these friends, led by her closest and most intimate advisor, Paula Strasberg, were actually terrorized by the state of affairs.....(Note; No wonder the Strasbergs wouldn't respond when marilyn asked them to help her get released...!!!..)
She had tried to bomb herself out with sleeping pills, just to escape the crushing weight of reality, but they wouldn't work."

The Article goes on to mention Marilyn's failed romance with Yves Montand, her failed marriage to Arthur Miller, the death of Idol Clark Gable.....they also mention that a highly concerned paula Strasberg stood by marilyn during all of this (susan strasberg also speaks of this trying time in her book...)


i just thought that this article was pretty darn interesting....


sabine
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