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Everlasting Star Community > The experts' lounge > Marilyn's mysterious death > General discussion
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ellen
sergeant jack clemmons was the first to arrive at marilyns house after the cover up had taken place,he had seen a number of suicides,and contrary to the common conception,an overdose of sleeping tablets usually causes victims to suffer convulsions and vommiting before they die in a contorted position. mrs murray heres a loud crash and rushes to marilyns room,she finds marilyn laying on the floor dying or dead.marilyn had had convulsions and as she fell out of bed she knocked over the nightstand,sending pill bottles and the mystery drinking glass to the floor. marilyn was wearing night clothes and had vommited down them also on the bed sheets.so could it be that the cover up was mrs murray and others? took marilyns bed clothes off and removed them from the house(mrs murray had packed some bags and put out the trash) to preserve her dignity,and there wasn't any more to put on marilyn?.which would explain why she was naked.also would explain why mrs murray was washing the sheets.during the clean up did the mystery drinking glass get broken and was swept up and binned,did anyone check the garbage? or did it simply get washed up and put back in the kitchen.iif marilyn suffered convulsions and had fallen this would explain bruising found on her body.so marilyn was placed on the bed in clean sheets,and instead of contorted she was stretched out with a phone in her hand and some dignity and the mystery began sadballerina.gif l
ellen
ooohhh as well if marilyn had vommited that would explain why her stomach was empty,and during the cover up the bottles could have been just picked up and randomly placed on the nightstand ? sadballerina.gif
rachelmarie
It's a possible theory I suppose but if Marilyn vomited, wouldn't they have found some trace of this in her mouth during the autopsy? And why would Murray leave Marilyn in the nude? Surely to preserve her dignity she would have put a clean nightdress on her? Just a thought. xx
ellen
you have a point with the autopsy,i said that maybe there wasn't any more bed clothes to put on marilyn.it was just a thought really after i had read what had been said,oh what have i started lol bye1.gif
rachelmarie
you brought up an interesting scenario of what could have happened. I'd be interested to see what everyone else has to say. It's so frustrating not knowing what happened to our poor Marilyn that night. One thing I do know is that I have never trusted or believed Eunice Murray. It was obvious she covered up a hell of a lot - whether for criminal reasons or because her memory was genuinely failing. Hmm! I dunno!
ellen
i read somewhere that marilyn had told friends she wanted eunice out of the house as she was too controlling,and that she carried large amounts of coins with her so she could use payphones,as she suspected the house was bugged and that eunice listened in and reported back to dr greenson.but i definetly don't trust her she's a shady character.
i would like to think marilyn died by herself alone and that she wasn't threatened and hurt but i just don't know what to believe
sadballerina.gif
sabine
Hi guys...may i add something here??

I have long been under the impression that something was 'fishy' with Sgt. Clemmons and this sheet washing business. Let's just say that there was evidence on those sheets...HOW STUPID to be washing them right under the nose of the arriving cops.....what better way than to get some suspicion going,eh???
Furthermore, Clemmons is the only one that claims he's seen the sheetwashing going on....how convenient.
I mantain that Mrs. Murray was simply packing her own belongings up (some of this involved packing clothes into a wickerbasket)...could this have been confused by Clemmons as something sinister???
Had mrs. murray really been washing sheets the police would have been on to her in half a second....comon, what do we have here? Bumbling idiot cops? All of them?
Secondly, there was no vomiting of the drugs. They were all found in the bloodstream so they obviously got there allright. Marilyn had purchased those drugs (Nembutal) herself and all of them were found in her system, topped off with some chloral hydrate she had on hand already.
The empty stomach thing needs to be explained once and for all. I talked to several medical proffessionals and watched the latest phorensic investigations and come to the following conclusions. The pills simply disolved in marilyn's stomach very, very quickly...since there were no fats,proteins or fiber to break down by the body, such as food, and since those pills were taken on an empty stomach to begin with, the simply 'disolved'...they did not need to be 'digested' at all. They swiftly liqufied and in a short amount of time were moved into the entestines. WHY should there be anything left? There was nothing to be left behind....
This is why the stomach was empty. A handful of pills do not take long to disolve and seep into the interstines, especially in a hardened pill user. However, the telltale sign of the stomach lining hemorraging was there.
The truth is right there before us....only we make it so complicated trying to explain the obvious away with some outlandish conspiracies that never quite ring true...you don't have to work this hard to make the pieces fit. They should fall right into place.

Anyways...that's my 2 cents worth Sabine


PS: Mrs. Murray has been made out to be some shady character because she happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Take another look. She was essentially an old woman hired to run errands and clean house for Marilyn (and maybe to keep an eye on Marilyn a bit, too). Mrs. Murray is about as nonthreatening as they come. I've seen the old woman speak...she's the furthest thing from intimidating. Greenson was concerned with Marilyn's safety and so were others. That's why Pat newcomb was over there all the time, among others..)
KES
With reference to the bruise - i read something about how they can tell by the depth and colour of a bruise if it was fresh or not - i.e if she had died very quickly afterwards, or had received the bruise after she had died i think its to do with the blood flow - Does anyone else know more about this?
Lauren Michele
Hi Kes, if I remember correctly, one does not bruise when they are deceased. Blood flow stops. I beleive Marilyn would had to have bruised prior to her demise. Medications can make people bruise very easily too. I know this first hand. When I bang my leg say on the table my bruise is soooo bad all due to my meds. Maybe Marilyn bruised easily in life? Fair skinned people do too. I have got off track Kes...I probably did not answer your question I am sorry. Lauren M.
Laura
With the whole "washing-sheets-too-late-at-night" business, I believe the Eunice was the most innocent out of all the people who gathered at Marilyns house that night, but wasn't completely innocent. Because I firmly believe she was murdered through overdose, that was meant to look like suicide, Eunice and the famous washing sheets at night was to cover up the fact that she was murdered. However, I don't believe Eunice agreed to take part, rather that she was ordered.

You're right Lauren, about the bruising. Although it doesn't technically mean she was abused or hurt herself before she passed away. During her final moments and the hours after, the bruising could have been caused by her lying the same way for a long time and the bloody collecting in one place. However, in the event that she did hurt herself accidentally, it could have been done previously in the day or the day before, the bruise just showing up then.
purple-haze
whatever happend its all so tragic, poor marilyn i wish i could have held her and told her it would be ok....
Charli
Whatever happened, it was so preventable! rolleyes1.gif

If I knew Marilyn in that last year of her life, I would not have left her alone!
I wouldn't care if she begged me to leave, or got really, I wouldn have put my foot down and stayed with her!

I know that I, (and probably everybody on this board) would have done a better job of "looking after" Marilyn! rolleyes1.gif
filthy22
QUOTE(Charli @ Apr 16 2006, 02:19 AM) [snapback]103093[/snapback]
I know that I, (and probably everybody on this board) would have done a better job of "looking after" Marilyn! rolleyes1.gif



so true charli, so true

Love Carrie
xxxxx marilynbybrandon_190.gif marilynbybrandon_190.gif
Tara
Yes, her death was preventable. But Marilyn was an adult and responsible for her own life, as we all are. She did have people around her who cared, and however misguided they might have been, that does not neccessarily mean they were to blame for her death. It is very, very hard to save someone who is intent on destroying themselves. While I feel that Marilyn was fighting hard to overcome her addictions, she was emotionally fragile and could have slipped back at any point.

Unless we can pinpoint a specific act of negligence, or murder, then I can't say for sure if anyone else was to blame. And I'm certainly not convinced that I, or any of us could have saved her. Hindsight is always 20/20. However, I'm very interested in all the points that have been raised in this thread.
KES
There are lots of suspicious things that Eunice is meant to have done - but there are several things that should have occured upon someone passing - all of your muscles relax - so obvious things might mark the bedding and also if a person vomits very hard apart from the soiling they can rupture tiny blood vessels in their stomach and these would have shown in theory in the autopsy. (Also when is someone is sick bile residue would probably remain in the mouth on the breath and on the teeth) I think that there is more to Mrs Murray than we know - but perhaps she was trying to preserve Marilyns dignity as a fellow woman - and as a result lost some evidence. -Does anyone know if they were Marilyns actual bed sheets or those from Mrs Murrays room ( if she was due to be leaving then next day perhaps she was cleaning her own bedding), or perhaps from the guest room - that would be interesting.
If Marilyns own sheets were 'clean' then this would seriously point to her not having died in bed as we have been led to believe. Does anyone know whose sheets were being washed? unsure.gif
crash32002
Honestly, if it were so obvious that Marilyn simply committed suicide. It wouldn't be so complicated. I strongly feel that too many things are 'questionable.' If it were such an open and close case, why do we have so many question unanswered.

What motive would Clemmons have to lie about the sheets and the fact that he saw them? He had been an officer for several years and clearly had no reason to go seeking fame through this whole ordeal. An officers of such experience would surely confirm a situation before making such a statement.

Aside from that, there is also the fact that Clemmons never changed his story. He told every detail the exact same every time, recalled the events in perfect order from his arrival to his departure. Murray however, changed her story about 'the light under the door' to 'a strange feeling' etc...

Also putting the sheet issue aside, there are also other questionable circumstances about the scene and the scenario that took place. Why had the waited so long to contact the police? If the window were broken from the outside, why did the glass fall in the opposite direction that it should have? What about Norman Jefferies and the statements that he's made? Pat Newcomb maintains that she drove over after hearing the news, but upon leaving her car was no where in site. It's just extremely odd to me that so many things don't add up.

It's sad to think that Marilyn killed herself, and perhaps that's a possible motive for so many of these theories...I however think there is more to it than that. I honestly feel that Marilyn was murdered. Even the suicide scenario is questionable. Psychologist have said that in suicides two types of people exist. Commiters, the ones who kill themselves- and Attempters, those who wish to commit suicide but can never actually do it. They always account, sometime subconsciously, for enough time to be left in which they will be found and saved. It's also been said that Attempters are classified by certain characteristics. A few of these characteristics include growing up without a stable family, and a instilled feeling of abandonment.

This is just my two cents, which isn't worth much. I just think that every angle deserves to be properly explored.

Oh yes, and if my employer laid dead in a bedroom...I think I would be more concerned with that, than packing my things to leave.
Lauren Michele
Many years ago, I believed Marilyn commited suicide. Then I heard of this conspiracy, and I changed my mind. It is sad anyway she died, but, to be murdered I hope it didn't happen that way. She did say good-bye to some people. I had said on another thread that one does not just fall asleep when you overdose. The body tries very hard to rid itself of the poison and vomits profusely. I did not know that Eunice washed sheets? But it does bother me also that she does this before the police arrive. Why? I am sure rigor mortis had set in and she had been dead for several hours. What went on during those hours? So many questions. But you cannot make a deceased person clutch a telephone like Marilyn had done because of the Rigor Mortis. Was she reaching out for help I wonder. Trying at the last moment to save herself. upset.gif
crash32002
It's very true that once you take an overdose, your body does not simply quit working. It tries very hard to rid your system of the overload of medicines, via throwing up. The previous times Marilyn tried to commit suicide, she had thrown up (which possibly kept her alive long enough to be found) and then had her stomach pumped further to get the rest of the medication out.
rachelmarie
I'm no medical expert, but I don't think you have to be. It's pretty obvious to me that if someone takes an overdose there's going to be a lot of mess to clean up...vomiting, maybe even diarrhoea as the body tries to get rid of the poison, plus I would have thought there would be a lot of contorting of the body. There's no way Marilyn would have been found all clean, lying in a nice clean bed in a nice straight line.

If she did committ suicide there was obviously a lot of cleaning up afterwards, which is fine as you would expect Mrs Murray to want to maintain her employer's dignity.

So...the facts are Marilyn died of an overdose..whether by her own hand or not we will probably never know...there would have been some sort of mess to clean up. This WAS cleaned up but if this was done to protect Marilyn's dignity, why didn't Mrs Murray also dress poor Marilyn...and why wasn't the phone taken out of her hand...and why was her body in a perfectly straight, non contorted line...there's lots of inconsitencies but I think that Mrs M washing at that time of the morning is definitely due to vomit etc on Marilyn's sheets.

Hope I'm making sense...am at work so rushing through ths reply lol!
RM xx
Tara
About the washer, I don't think anyone, even Sgt Clemmons, has positively identified what was in it ... can anyone confirm this? Also, could it be that Mrs Murray was doing laundry simply because the house would soon be sealed off? She was the housekeeper after all, and probably would not have wanted to go back and do laundry in that house after the funeral.
KES
Ooh Rachelmarie- very good point - i had always thought that the sheets had been changed - but if this was to protect Merilyns dignity then you're right - why leave poor Marilyn naked unsure.gif
Lauren Michele
Perhaps Eunice had no idea what was going on with Marilyn, only the fact that Marilyn was vomiting so she, being housekeeper, changed Marilyn's sheets while Marilyn was still alive. Maybe Eunice really thought Marilyn was very ill and was cleaning up after her. We all get stomach viruses. Perhaps Marilyn had not convulsed yet, just was vomiting and mumbling to call Dr. Greenson? I am trying to imagine if this woman only cared for Marilyn's reputation and didn't want anyone to know she overdosed and was violently ill because of that. Or did Eunice HAVE to clean up? But you cannot put a telephone inside a hand that has rigor mortis I believe. Marilyn was reaching out to someone that night. After reading all of your posts, I am wondering did she want to save Marilyn's reputation or did she Have to clean up and shut up.


Maybe Marilyn just took too many pills, accidently, mixed with alcohol perhaps, and was not able to dial that phone. She was only able to pick up the receiver and clutch onto it.
Tara
Ralph Roberts spoke of hearing a woman's voice on his answering service, incoherent. The call was made around 9-10 pm. I think he may have been the last person Marilyn called - maybe she was in a panic about overdosing, and Ralph was probably her closest friend at the time. In her confused state she may have forgot that Mrs Murray was in the house, and called Ralph for help.
Lauren Michele
I don't think I have enough room so I'll start another post. The 48 HOURS TAPES, Marilyn's supposed best friend Jeanne Carmen I believe her name is, claims that Marilyn called her on the night of Aug. 4th, and asked Jeanne if she had any sleeping pills. Jeanne said on the show that she told Marilyn " I can't drive over to give them to you, I've had too many drinks". Jeanne claims she was Marilyn's best friend in the world. Why would Marilyn need sleeping pills if she had all of those bottles on her night stand that had recently been filled. That is a question a would love an answer to. Unless Jeanne is not remembering correctly. I don't think I will ever know. I heard Marilyn would not have hung around with Jeanne Carmen. She was not Marilyn's type. So, who knows.



Lauren M.

You may be right Tara, because Marilyn had taken too many pills in the past before but managed to phone for help in time. It could be that Dr. Greenson or her attorney did not want Marilyn to know Eunice was still there because no one wants to feel like they are being baby sat...an adult anyways.

I did not know about Ralph Roberts hearing an incoherent female voice. Lauren M.
Tara
QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ May 21 2006, 05:51 PM) [snapback]105193[/snapback]
I don't think I have enough room so I'll start another post. The 48 HOURS TAPES, Marilyn's supposed best friend Jeanne Carmen I believe her name is, claims that Marilyn called her on the night of Aug. 4th, and asked Jeanne if she had any sleeping pills. Jeanne said on the show that she told Marilyn " I can't drive over to give them to you, I've had too many drinks". Jeanne claims she was Marilyn's best friend in the world. Why would Marilyn need sleeping pills if she had all of those bottles on her night stand that had recently been filled. That is a question a would love an answer to. Unless Jeanne is not remembering correctly. I don't think I will ever know. I heard Marilyn would not have hung around with Jeanne Carmen. She was not Marilyn's type. So, who knows.
Lauren M.

You may be right Tara, because Marilyn had taken too many pills in the past before but managed to phone for help in time. It could be that Dr. Greenson or her attorney did not want Marilyn to know Eunice was still there because no one wants to feel like they are being baby sat...an adult anyways.

I did not know about Ralph Roberts hearing an incoherent female voice. Lauren M.


I personally don't believe that Jeanne Carmen was a friend of Marilyn's. There are no pictures of them together, she was not in any of Marilyn's address books, and none of Marilyn's other friends knew her. In 1961, she lived in an apartment building near Marilyn's Doheny Drive home. That is true, but doesn't really prove anything. She has since claimed that they were roommates, she saw MM in bed with the Kennedys etc. The stories just grow and grow.

There are many who claim that Marilyn called them that evening, and some I think are not telling the truth. The ones I do believe are Joe Jr, Peter Lawford and Ralph Roberts. Carmen, Bolanos and Guilaroff I do not believe. Just my opinion of course.
Lauren Michele
I don't believe that Jeanne and Marilyn were as close as Jeanne made it sound to be either Tara. Yes, they did room together one time, Jeanne supposedly caught Marilyn and John Kennedy in bed. Jeanne claimed that Marilyn liked Jeanne so much because Jeanne was able to keep secrets. Well, on national television, Jeanne told America she caught John and Marilyn together in bed. Regardless if mostly everyone has past on she should have kept it forever. Maybe I am over reacting a bit but she totally contradicted the reason why her and Marilyn were "so close". What gets me is when people pass away, many people come out of the woodwork and make false claims of the deceased. .....Lauren M.
Babysugarmuffin
QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ May 22 2006, 02:09 AM) [snapback]105219[/snapback]
I don't believe that Jeanne and Marilyn were as close as Jeanne made it sound to be either Tara. Yes, they did room together one time, Jeanne supposedly caught Marilyn and John Kennedy in bed. Jeanne claimed that Marilyn liked Jeanne so much because Jeanne was able to keep secrets. Well, on national television, Jeanne told America she caught John and Marilyn together in bed. Regardless if mostly everyone has past on she should have kept it forever. Maybe I am over reacting a bit but she totally contradicted the reason why her and Marilyn were "so close". What gets me is when people pass away, many people come out of the woodwork and make false claims of the deceased. .....Lauren M.


I agree with you so much Lauren Michele. When I saw that 48 Hours special that one saturday night, I was so excited, then once I saw it, my mouth was in awe by how dissapointed I was.
I was thinking the same thing, especially about Jeanne. Alot of people who are claiming they knew Marilyn, didn't.

I never had a good feeling with eunice the first time I've known about her. I have been a fan of MM since I was a toddler, and around in my early years in High school, I started reading about the people who "knew" marilyn and thier stories. Eunice was the one that was the most fishy to me.
But Marilyn isn't with us anymore, and I just don't like thinking about this controversy around her death. I love celebrating the woman she was.

It's just funny seeing how many "best friends" of Marilyn's there are these days. If they all were her best friends they would have helped her at that moment. And would have been there for her, instead now they are just using her fame to rise thier own. Which they will never have. Shame on everyone who claims they knew Marilyn personally.
Cello
my belief is that she was given a lethal enema and that can get messy and there can be leakage. Thus Eunice taking the sheets after MM was done leaking and washing them. I also believe she was killed, not ON her bed but she was moved there after it was clear that she had died.
Fav
Sorry this is offtopic.gif , but this thread has to have the best subject heading on the board. laugh.gif
ellen
unsure.gif hhhmmmm.....
Fav
QUOTE(ellen @ Jan 14 2007, 05:48 PM) [snapback]124789[/snapback]
unsure.gif hhhmmmm.....


No, I genuinely mean it Ellen. It has kept me amused for a while and I've only just got around to saying it! bye1.gif
ellen
laugh.gif phew!!!!!!!
Nancy
Mrs. Murray and that Darn Washer... yes, Fav, I agree!!! fool.gif
Fav
balloon.gif Sorry everyone. Please continue the debate after this short interlude!
marked77
I feel dr greenson was to keep an eye on marilyn for fox as he was good friends with henry producer of sgtg and henry did not like marilyn at all. They tried to cause marilyn emotional problems. Marilyn just wanted to live her life in peace. As marilyn said people exagerat normal things when famous.
Lorelei Lee
QUOTE(Cello @ Jan 13 2007, 02:52 AM) [snapback]124594[/snapback]
my belief is that she was given a lethal enema and that can get messy and there can be leakage. Thus Eunice taking the sheets after MM was done leaking and washing them. I also believe she was killed, not ON her bed but she was moved there after it was clear that she had died.


This is what I also believe
Margherita
QUOTE(ellen @ May 6 2005, 11:23 PM) [snapback]77135[/snapback]
throb.gif took marilyns bed clothes off and removed them from the house(mrs murray had packed some bags and put out the trash) to preserve her dignity,and there wasn't any more to put on marilyn?.

throb.gif which would explain why she was naked.

throb.gif and instead of contorted she was stretched out with a phone in her hand and some dignity and the mystery began sadballerina.gif l



- It's a bit difficult to believe that there wasn't any more bedclothes in Marilyn's house.....And why couldn't Mrs Murray take the dirty bedclothes and others to some place where other laundry was kept till it was to be put in a washing-machine as normally, why did it have to be washed to same exact night?

- Marilyn allways slept naked.

- What was so dignified in dying a "phone in one's hand"? To me, placing purposedly a phone in her hand would sound obscure or absurd, not a gesture to make her look like somebody who's died with more dignity....
jonas
QUOTE(Cello @ Jan 13 2007, 03:52 AM) *
my belief is that she was given a lethal enema and that can get messy and there can be leakage. Thus Eunice taking the sheets after MM was done leaking and washing them. I also believe she was killed, not ON her bed but she was moved there after it was clear that she had died.

Cello,that last sentence is what I believe too.Only, I'm not sure how she died. Marilyn's body was found in a position which isn't common for someone who has just overdosed.Didn't one of the police officers on the scene ask Greenson,Engelberg or Murray about that? Sgt Clemmons mentioned it in the interviews he gave but did he ask Greenson about it? And would it have been so difficult for Greenson to say they had found Marilyn on the floor and placed her on the bed? Either he didn't answer this-because he wasn't asked?- or his answer wasn't convincing because Clemmons always brought this up in interviews.
As for Murray using the washer at that time of the night...it's because something was dirty and needed to be cleaned.Urgently!
If it's true that she was cleaning sheets from Marilyn's bed at that time of the night,there had to be a reason.Even if she didn't know that those sheets could have helped to determine the cause of death,once taken to the lab, there were two doctors inside the house who would have known! It's all very strange!
dwane
QUOTE(Ultraviolet @ May 28 2007, 10:28 PM) *
- Marilyn allways slept naked.


marilyn ususally slept with a bra on, that's what i've read at least.
Cello
She most likely died on her back and then was moved on her front side. That's what the levity of her body points to. (Of course this was all covered up at first. Also, there were 2 bruises on her hip and back.) There are many possible explanations to this.
magda24
QUOTE(dwane @ Mar 24 2008, 06:17 PM) *
marilyn ususally slept with a bra on, that's what i've read at least.

I've read it also Dwane!She wanted her breast to be perfect. She once said(to S. Strasberg as I remember) that she put her bra immediately after having sex.And my thought: when somebody dies you don't bother with cleaning up unless you want to cover up sth. You just don't want to mess with a suicide/crime scene until the police is present.And doctors/policemen are not vulnerable people;they see and take a lot. Why bother in making the death more...elegant for them and be accused of tampering with a scene?
Or Ms Murray had compulsive personality and HAD to make a laundry when somebody died (which I doubt).
psyche
I also feel that Marilyn was moved onto her bed, or at least flipped over onto her belly. that the position they found her in didn't at all sound like a position a person dead from an overdose would naturally fall in to.

what I'm also wondering about is the telephone. I find the whole, "she was reaching out to someone to help her...." kind of contrived..and really way too poetic and romantic to probably be true. I don't know much about death from overdose, but the amount of pills marilyn needed to have taken in order to get those levels in her blood, I don't think she would have just slowly, little by little slipped into death. in other words, it seems more probable that she had convulsions and who while having convulsions would be in the right state of mind to reach for the phone and think to call for help? I'd think it would be way more likely that she would have screamed, or somehow reacted in a more animal-instinct way than be logical,grab a phone and dial numbers (not only dial them but even try to remember them at all, which wouldn't probably be as hard for Marilyn since she was constantly calling people wink3.gif ).The only way I could see Marilyn calling anyone so close to death would be if it was just BEFORE she had any convulsions. and then if she did have her convulsions, I doubt that she'd still have the phone in her hands.

As for Eunice and that darn washer...wink3.gif
It's true that people react VERY differently to shock such as the death of someone close. It could be that Eunice went about gathering her things, doing the wash, because she was simply in shock and what else was she to do? There's a calming effect from doing cleaning and chores (I find myself that when I want to clear my mind from too many worries, cleaning up helps a lot)or anything i guess that's really repetitive or habitual to the person. There are so many details about the sheets that she had on her bed that need to be known to gather clues and make any sorts of logical conclusions......were Marilyn's sheets ironed, machine dried or dried on a line? were they wrinkly on her bed, how did they smell, etc? In other words, did those sheets look like they had been just put on that bed, or did they look like they'd been there for a bit?

but what does further make eunice's actions suspicious.....OK, let's suppose she was just keeping herself busy, out of shock....but then she called her son in law (Norman Jeffries, right?) to fix Marilyn's broken bedroom window? I find that pretty weird....I mean,wouldn't you think that she'd assume the police would take care of that? or....it just seems like a strange thing to do unless the police advised her to do it.


URG! so many unknowns!
jonas
I think it's time to stop beating around the bush! It's obvious that something went on that night. Eunice Murray's,and others' actions, are just too atypical. if there wasn't a cover up to murder, then there was a cover up to what went on at Marilyn's home that night. And if that's not illegal, then it's immoral!

From the washing of sheets which may have contained some sort of evidence as to how Marilyn biologically reacted to what was put in her, be it through her hand or someone else's, to her contradictory statements over the years. Plus, that famous documentary that was never allowed to air on American TV. Off-camera, she supposedly asks.."How much longer do I have to cover this up?"
Basically, some people in LA-connected to the Police?- decided that by orchestrating the causes behind Marilyn's death, or the inspection of the house afterwards, they'd get in favor with someone high up.
This is still beating around the bush a bit but let's keep in mind Joe Dimaggio refused to shake RFK's hand at a baseball game in 1965. Why? Was it because he felt that the Kennedys had driven her to suicide? If so, why was Dimaggio planning on marrying her again on August 8th? Assuming this is true. Did he feel that the Kennedys had been impeding him from re-capturing Marilyn's love?
Was RFK a rival? Or did he truly suspect that the Kennedys had some direct involvement in her death?
Why wouldn't he shake RFK's hand? Though, in a sense, Dimaggio's behaviour is a confirmation that Marilyn and the Kennedys at least knew each other.
dwane
i definately think eunice had something to do with marilyn's death. it's sooo fishy, why would anyone be doing laundry at that time? and plus why would you wait an entire hour to call police or whatever after you find someone dead? she's a very sketchy character.
jonas
QUOTE(dwane @ May 8 2008, 01:14 AM) *
i definately think eunice had something to do with marilyn's death. it's sooo fishy, why would anyone be doing laundry at that time? and plus why would you wait an entire hour to call police or whatever after you find someone dead? she's a very sketchy character.


She was doing the laundry to wash away the "stains" from Marilyn's biological reaction to whatever happened in her body. The hour-or the three hours- was so that somebody would have the time to:Look for,Find and Remove anything which may have connected Marilyn to the people paying for this mission to be completed! Assuming Greenson was sincere, he should have known better than to allow Murray to remove the sheets from where Marilyn was found and start washing them. Unless,of course, he already knew the cause of death. Remember, she was washing them when the police arrived. Quite a few hours after Marilyn was already "officially" dead! Murray,Greenson and Engelberg were shouting suicide/accidental overdose while the Police tended towards foul play!
Either way, the sheets at the lab, could have been useful!!!
Vicoria Hoffman 1975
Didnt she change the time she found Marilyn to the police? At first she said it was because the studio had to be told (probably common practise then) but at first she said it was midnight then chaged it to 3am.

We only have Greenson and Murrays word for it that she was holding the telephone. The telephone receiver had already been put back when the police got there.
lillis3
QUOTE(crash32002 @ Apr 17 2006, 10:13 PM) *
Honestly, if it were so obvious that Marilyn simply committed suicide. It wouldn't be so complicated. I strongly feel that too many things are 'questionable.' If it were such an open and close case, why do we have so many question unanswered. What motive would Clemmons have to lie about the sheets and the fact that he saw them? He had been an officer for several years and clearly had no reason to go seeking fame through this whole ordeal. An officers of such experience would surely confirm a situation before making such a statement.Aside from that, there is also the fact that Clemmons never changed his story. He told every detail the exact same every time, recalled the events in perfect order from his arrival to his departure. Murray however, changed her story about 'the light under the door' to 'a strange feeling' etc... Also putting the sheet issue aside, there are also other questionable circumstances about the scene and the scenario that took place. Why had the waited so long to contact the police? If the window were broken from the outside, why did the glass fall in the opposite direction that it should have? What about Norman Jefferies and the statements that he's made? Pat Newcomb maintains that she drove over after hearing the news, but upon leaving her car was no where in site. It's just extremely odd to me that so many things don't add up. It's sad to think that Marilyn killed herself, and perhaps that's a possible motive for so many of these theories...I however think there is more to it than that. I honestly feel that Marilyn was murdered. Even the suicide scenario is questionable. Psychologist have said that in suicides two types of people exist. Commiters, the ones who kill themselves- and Attempters, those who wish to commit suicide but can never actually do it. They always account, sometime subconsciously, for enough time to be left in which they will be found and saved. It's also been said that Attempters are classified by certain characteristics. A few of these characteristics include growing up without a stable family, and a instilled feeling of abandonment. This is just my two cents, which isn't worth much. I just think that every angle deserves to be properly explored.Oh yes, and if my employer laid dead in a bedroom...I think I would be more concerned with that, than packing my things to leave.
Unfortunately, according to several researchs abut lying, you can't say that a person is lying because they change their story a little bit or not. But I DO think that something strange was going on. It's to many weird circumstances...
QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ May 21 2006, 06:20 PM) *
Perhaps Eunice had no idea what was going on with Marilyn, only the fact that Marilyn was vomiting so she, being housekeeper, changed Marilyn's sheets while Marilyn was still alive. Maybe Eunice really thought Marilyn was very ill and was cleaning up after her. We all get stomach viruses. Perhaps Marilyn had not convulsed yet, just was vomiting and mumbling to call Dr. Greenson? I am trying to imagine if this woman only cared for Marilyn's reputation and didn't want anyone to know she overdosed and was violently ill because of that.
Interesting point, I never thought about that!
LasseK
Regarding Clemmons (and Capell, author of "The Strange Death of Marilyn Monroe") I have this from TIME magazine of March 5th, 1965:
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment

Lasse


pinup
QUOTE(jonas @ May 8 2008, 12:36 AM) *
Plus, that famous documentary that was never allowed to air on American TV. Off-camera, she supposedly asks.."How much longer do I have to cover this up?"



Wow I didnt know that a documenatry was banned from American TV!? Does anyone know why this was and which one was it? Is it viewable now?
jonas
QUOTE(pinup @ May 4 2009, 04:46 PM) *
Wow I didnt know that a documenatry was banned from American TV!? Does anyone know why this was and which one was it? Is it viewable now?


Hi pinup! This documentary was made by Geraldo Rivera for some show he had on ABC,I think, back in the mid or late eighties.I've never seen it but from what I've read on message boards on other Marilyn sites, he had some problems with the people in charge at the network he worked for because of it. Anyway, some people say that it aired on British TV at the time, I don't know. I've looked for it all over cyberspace and haven't been able to find it! Now, the reason for the show not having aired is supposedly because Eunice Murray hinted,in a way, at a Kennedy involvement with what went on that night at Marilyn's home. Was she referring to Marilyn's death or to the "clean-up" job that most likely took place? Though it was said off-camera, what and why did or would Murray make a statement like that? Hmm... that four-hour wait before calling for professional help... very strange!
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