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Everlasting Star Community > The experts' lounge > Marilyn's mysterious death > General discussion
marie-marilyn
We all know that Marilyn sadly died on the evening of August 4th 1962 and that in the time leading up to her death she had got closer again to Joe DiMaggio.

However, if they had set the date for August 8th it doesn't make sense that she would take her life just days before. And if it was on purpose surely she would have left a note for Joe. Do any of you think that this is significant in the arguement for her murder/accidental overdose?

And what do you think of Frank Sinatra's claims that he was going to marry her, why would he say that if she was back with Joe? Does this incriminate the Mafia in any way?

Discuss, I'd love to know what you think.
nathalie
I don't know if Sinatra would to marry with Marilyn.I think in the past, she would to.She stayed very friend with DiMaggio.He was surely the man of her live.In the last time, she was with Jose Bolanos, but I don't know if she loved him so much...
jeharsy
Those are the misteries of her life, I don't know if she was going to marry joe again, but it would have been nice.
Fav
Hi Marie

Where did you get that date for a marriage to Dimaggio from? I doubt that Frank Sinatra would ever have married her and I think she was better off out of that relationship. I think Jose Bolanos was a way to pass the time.
marie-marilyn
I came across it on a timeline of her life events, if you type it in on google you get a whole bunch of hits for it, although I must admit I only found out about it a few minutes before I made this topic. I hadn't heard of it until then.

And I was reading an article on Frank Sinatra and apparently he claimed that he would have married Marilyn because "no one would mess with her if she was Mrs Sinatra" or something to that effect.
Nina
I do often think, if she would have married Joe again but I really don't know...

The most important thing to think about would be, if she still was in love with him. If she still was, I could imagine she would have married him again but we all didn't know her inner feelings to Joe at the time of her death.

I believe for Marilyn the reasons for the divorce were still on her mind, wasn't it Joe, who had trouble seeing her in showbusiness, telling her, most of her roles were that of a dumb blonde? At least it was that what I've heard were some of the reasons why her marriage broke. And it was said that he was very jealous, something I think was hard to handle for Marilyn. I don't think Marilyn was shy. She loved to talk to people, no matter if male or female but I believe for Joe it was often not so easy to make differences... he didn't like the show business very much and was rarely on previews (ex. for the Seven Year Itch). And if you look on some of the pictures on which she is together with Joe, you can see her different style of clothes, not so sexy and more lady like. You can see it on her wedding dress too. But remember, it doesn't matter how terrible the clothes looked like, Marilyn was always beautiful, even in a potato sack dress laugh.gif That means to me, that Joe told her, that he didn't wishes to see her wearing this or that... that means Marilyn did it for him, but when you love someone, it doesn't matter, what clothes he/she wears (jmo)

I think Marilyn, if she really would have married him again, has told him, that he had to change his mind on some important things. Maybe he changed because he loved her so much.

I don't think that Sinatra would have married her. I think the both were just close friends. I often think if Marilyn had all this lovers most of the books mentioned, she could never ever finished so many movies because of the lack of time laugh.gif
Tara
I first read about the remarriage rumours in Spoto's book, which I rate very highly, but I don't know whether they are true or just wishful thinking.

Marilyn had supposedly ordered a gown to be designed by Jean-Louis ... and a few days before she died, she visited a florist who claimed that she told him, 'I'm so happy because I'm going to be married to someone I was married to before'. But of course, this may be just a rumour.

Also, after she died, a note was found in her house, from her to Joe. It said something like if she could succeed in making him happy, it would be the biggest thing she'd ever done. I don't know why it was never sent though. Did she die before she could send it, or had she written it before and then changed her mind?

I agree with you Nina, when Marilyn and Joe were first married, he disapproved of her career, the way she dressed, etc. And because he couldn't accept her for who she was, the marriage failed. But despite all his faults, I've always felt that in his heart, Joe loved Marilyn more than anyone else.

It certainly seems that they did get close again after her divorce from Arthur. The way he supported her when she was in hospital was just great. Could it be that be that by then, he finally saw the real woman, and loved her for that alone? Or was he just the same old jealous guy?
mels
Ha... Well... while I believe she got a bit closer to DiMaggio in her last months... I don't really buy the remarriage stories, but i can't really put my finger on why.

Something is telling me that if this rumour were true, it would have been talked about in the press or at least in gossips columns?... Even if they were keeping this all a secret, some information always leaks somehow... it would have been a sensational event IMO.
I think their relationship was too passionate, at least on his side to work out in marriage. They made the mistake once, I have quite a hard time believing they would make that mistake twice. Being great friends and occasional lovers again is one thing I can totally believe in, but getting married again... not so sure!

Sooo... to answer your (very interesting) question Marie, no, I don't believe their relationship (and eventual problems in it) could have been a direct cause to Marilyn's death. Then maybe it was one of the reasons she felt so down, but I can't picture it being THE reason behind Marilyn's demise.

Also, Tara wrote

QUOTE
Also, after she died, a note was found in her house, from her to Joe. It said something like if she could succeed in making him happy, it would be the biggest thing she'd ever done. I don't know why it was never sent though. Did she die before she could send it, or had she written it before and then changed her mind?


I like to think that this is a true fact. Once again though, we will never know. But I do not really take this as a proof or even a hint of a remarriage, just an acknowlegement of their relationship and profound love for eachother.

As you mentionned earlier, despite all the problems in their relationship (and I believe that Marilyn had her share of bad behavior towards Joe as well), I do really believe there was true love between these two.
Mairi
I'm sure the two loved each other, but I really do not think that two people who are so vastly different- especially when we are talking about career wise- can stay together very long, no matter how much chemistry they have.
sabine
I have vintage magazines that speak of rumours surrounding Joe Dimaggio's and Marilyn's re-marriage....it says that Joe's family was against it because Marilyn was a 'loose canon'....and i guess they were right because after Marilyn recouped in Florida with Joe she promptly ditched him in favor of Frank Sinatra and the wole westcoast crowd (the ratpack, the lawfords, the kennedys,etc...)
Poor Joe was left out in the cold once again.......and i think he was truly Marilyn's friend toward the end and was the only one that could have influenced Marilyn for the better but Marilyn was her own worst enemy.

So, as far as a re-marriage...the magazines were speaking of it but it was only rumours.

sabine
Paju
I'm now reading the part of Spoto's biography where he talks about the remarriage. I'm starting to believe it more and more. I believe that Joe and Marilyn both had grown as human beings, an luckily to the same direction, and they could maybe accept each other better that before. There was indeed a letter from Marilyn to Joe (as we have now found out in General Discussion), and I don't know whether it's my romantic mind playing tricks on me or what, but to me that sounds the kind of letter that a woman could send to her soon-to-be-husband.
If the remarriage rumors are true - poor Joe! I now feel more sorry for him than ever. Imagine that you're planning a wedding and end up planning a funeral for the person you were going to marry. I've always felt so sorry for him when I see pictures of him at Marilyn's funeral, but now I feel a thousand times more sorry for him than ever before.
suusmarie
I agree on that letter (reposting it here for those who didnīt see it yet blush.gif ) sounding like MM wrote it as a kind of love letter to Joe. That was the first thing I though when I first saw the letter years ago and this was before reading Spotoīs biography. It sounds plausable to me for sure that they would remarry, Joe indeed seemed soooo heartbroken at her funeral sadballerina.gif

hug.gif Suus
Clift
Wow, I never see the letter
thanks suusmarie biggrin.gif
rose
Is love enough..Is it ever enough?I don't think so.I think there must be more when people get married than just love or sexual attraction..
I don't think they were going to get married again.It would have been like taking one step back.Unless Marilyn was thinking of giving up her dreams of being serious actress and settled to be wife and maybe mother also..
*sigh*
Tara
I think that by 1962, Joe and Marilyn had a deep bond, more than sexual attraction. They had been through so much together, and I think they understood each other's needs better than in 1954. But I'm still not convinced by Spoto's remarriage claim. That she had ordered a new dress, and was buying food from a caterer's is not enough proof for me.
rose
QUOTE(Tara @ Dec 22 2005, 06:28 PM) [snapback]94788[/snapback]
I think that by 1962, Joe and Marilyn had a deep bond, more than sexual attraction. They had been through so much together, and I think they understood each other's needs better than in 1954. But I'm still not convinced by Spoto's remarriage claim. That she had ordered a new dress, and was buying food from a caterer's is not enough proof for me.



That would have been a good start for building lasting,mature relationship but still I don't believe that they were going to remarry at least not 1)that day Marilyn died 2)according some articles,books and friends it is said that Joe wanted to remarry Marilyn but Marilyn wanted them to stay "only" as close friends.I find it easier to believe that marilyn wanted to keep him as a special friend but that's all.
Robby
I heard somewere that Marilyn and Joe, had a remarriage on the 8th of august, the day she would be buried!

That's so sad.
rose
QUOTE(Robby @ Dec 24 2005, 02:47 PM) [snapback]94902[/snapback]
I heard somewere that Marilyn and Joe, had a remarriage on the 8th of august, the day she would be buried!

That's so sad.


Yes,that I was referring to but I don't believe it.Just another myth around her legend. rolleyes1.gif
Sweet Charity
I don't believe that Marilyn would have married Joe again; we all know he disapproved Marilyn's career, people she attended, the way she dressed...
He loved Norma Jean, not Marilyn and in my opinion he had to accept even this aspect of Marilyn/Norma Jean's life (I mean Hollywood and all the aspects of a star of Hollywood); he was a real south italian man, of course he wanted the happiness of Marilyn but for me he was the wrong man and he wanted to make her happy in the wrong way.
Perhaps Marilyn would have been happier with an actor or a showman (not Frank Sinatra or Peter Lawford, they only used her!) who could understand her and her project for the job... tbird.gif
sabine
I have several vintage magazines that talk about a possible re-marriage to Joe DiMaggio.
Suposedly it was HIS family that wasn't too thrilled about it....Marilyn had dumped Joe off in favor of various others from time to time...most notably Sinatra's "rat pack" (she took off from New York after hanging with Joe to party with the gang in Vegas, Palm Springs and Reno)....and the Kennedys (more partying without Joe!)....
It's hard to say what Joe had on his mind...he obviously was still very close to her.
He took care of her funeral, too....the man really loved her, no doubt in my mind!


sabine bye1.gif
Tara
The Joe of 1962 was a very different man than at the time of their first marriage. He was devastated by their breakup, and started seeing a therapist afterwards. This was a very brave step for such a reserved, private man, especially in the 1950s. I think he realised that he had not been a good husband - not that Marilyn was perfect, of course. But he didn't really show his love and was very disapproving of her choices.

By 1962, I think he had realised the error he had made and was trying his best to change. He wanted to accept her as she was, not to criticise. The trouble was, Marilyn was so damaged by this point after years of depression and drug abuse. I think he partly blamed himself and felt that if he had been a better husband, her life might not have gone so wrong. And Marilyn was beginning to realise what a decent guy he was, having taken him for granted in the past.

I don't believe that there was a wedding planned, not at all. But, maybe it was something that Joe still hoped for, deep in his heart. And Marilyn must have realised that with all his faults, Joe was someone she could count on, and would never use her. However, I can understand that Joe's family were concerned about their relationship, because Marilyn was so fragile and unpredictable. While I can believe that Joe might have wanted to get back together, I'm not sure if this was her wish or that it could have worked. Now we'll never know.
sabine
The rumours back then about a possible remarriage could have been simply brought about because of the tabloids....i can probobly dig up a few articles concerning this.
I am glad that Marilyn had Joe in her corner, no matter what. Maybe she should have stuck with him. (He was probobly boring compared to some of the people she hung out with).



sabine

PS: tara...nice post!
Young
I believe that they grew very close; I'd like to think that they would've remarried. Marilyn mentioned Joe in her interview with George Barris. [This was on a Sunday in June of 1962] She said "My friends tell me that my ex, Joe, is still in love with me. Well, I still love him too, but he does have a tendecy to be a little hotheaded. It usually does take two to make it work, now doesn't it?"

I don't know. Maybe there was a hint of reconciliation.
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(Young @ Aug 8 2006, 05:19 AM) [snapback]111424[/snapback]
I believe that they grew very close; I'd like to think that they would've remarried. Marilyn mentioned Joe in her interview with George Barris. [This was on a Sunday in June of 1962] She said "My friends tell me that my ex, Joe, is still in love with me. Well, I still love him too, but he does have a tendecy to be a little hotheaded. It usually does take two to make it work, now doesn't it?"

I don't know. Maybe there was a hint of reconciliation.


Hi Young. I see you wrote this Aug. 8th, you may not read this, well, i heard a rumor Joe and Marilyn were to wed on the day Marilyn was buried. My heart just sunk to the floor for Joe. Then i read on here that- that was not the case and that there was no plans of a wedding in August of '62 after all. I wanted to believe that there was going to be a reconciliation very badly and i believed it strongly. What i really need to do, is do alot of research. I feel bad asking so many questions all of the time. I love to discuss as apose to be alone and read. But anyway, I do know Joe loved Marilyn very much. He really wanted to make it work. I don't know what their plans were for the future as in marriage but i believe he was willing to try anything to change his ways. His temper and such. Yes, his hotheadedness. He was very jealous no doubt. It is too bad we will never know. But i hold alot of respect for Joe for not writing books to profit off of his and her relationship. You know?
Tara
Just before Marilyn died, Joe had given up his job and was planning to move back to California. I think that if she had lived, Marilyn may well have given her relationship with Joe a second chance. And I do think it's possible that he would have proposed at some point. Maybe it could have worked out for them, it's hard to say - they really did care for each other, but they had a lot of problems to face. I like to think of them being happy together, they made a lovely couple. But, the rumour that they were due to remarry on August 8th is not true, IMO.
meganmarilyn
If Joe had REALLY loved Marilyn in my opinion, she would have stopped taking pills and stopped drinking. There was a reason she was doing these things to herself. She was utterly sad and alone. If she was still in love with Joe, she wouldn't have been doing this to herself. My opinion. I think Joe loved her and she loved him, but not deep enough love where he would have done EVERYTHING in his power to make her happy and make her stop abusing herself. We all know, Marilyn was a true romantic at heart. She didn't want someone who loved her 75% or 85% of the time. She wanted someone who loved her 100%, loved her faults, loved her from head to toe. That's why I believe she wasn't planning on remarriage. Even if they did, I doubt it would have lasted that long. She would have still been on pills and drinking, she wouldn't have changed. Joe was a sweet man. But Marilyn in my eyes was Cinderella looking for her Prince Charming.
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Sep 2 2006, 09:50 AM) [snapback]113665[/snapback]
If Joe had REALLY loved Marilyn in my opinion, she would have stopped taking pills and stopped drinking. There was a reason she was doing these things to herself. She was utterly sad and alone. If she was still in love with Joe, she wouldn't have been doing this to herself. My opinion. I think Joe loved her and she loved him, but not deep enough love where he would have done EVERYTHING in his power to make her happy and make her stop abusing herself. We all know, Marilyn was a true romantic at heart. She didn't want someone who loved her 75% or 85% of the time. She wanted someone who loved her 100%, loved her faults, loved her from head to toe. That's why I believe she wasn't planning on remarriage. Even if they did, I doubt it would have lasted that long. She would have still been on pills and drinking, she wouldn't have changed. Joe was a sweet man. But Marilyn in my eyes was Cinderella looking for her Prince Charming.


Hi Megan, this is such a sensitive issue. If a person has a drug or alcohol disease, no man or woman in the world can save them. The addict needs to go to a rehab for help. It wasn't Joes fault she continued to use pills and alcohol. YOu can love someone with all of your might but love alone is not going to make an addict quit abusing drugs. I think rehab was what she needed. Joe couldn't fill the empty void because she needed the proper psychiactric therapy. Joe loved Marilyn. But it sounds like you are putting to much responsibility on Joe instead of Marilyn finding the proper help. bye1.gif
meganmarilyn
My point was WHY do you think she was abusing herself? Because NO ONE could love her the way she wanted to be loved. She had this great need for love. She was searching all her life for it. Rehab wouldn't have made her happy. Just as her psychoanalysis with a psychiatrist didn't help her, it only made things worse. That is why I am saying if someone truly loved her on the terms she wanted to be loved, she would have stopped abusing herself. I think we have to see the world from her perspective and not from Joe's or ours. Like I said, I think Joe loved her. But as we saw, she didn't change because of his love. She didn't change when she was married to Arthur. The right man wasn't in her life. If he was, I believe he would have taken her away from those hangups that made her so sad and done anything to make her happy. He never came along in her life.


QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Sep 2 2006, 09:43 AM) [snapback]113670[/snapback]
Hi Megan, this is such a sensitive issue. If a person has a drug or alcohol disease, no man or woman in the world can save them. The addict needs to go to a rehab for help. It wasn't Joes fault she continued to use pills and alcohol. YOu can love someone with all of your might but love alone is not going to make an addict quit abusing drugs. I think rehab was what she needed. Joe couldn't fill the empty void because she needed the proper psychiactric therapy. Joe loved Marilyn. But it sounds like you are putting to much responsibility on Joe instead of Marilyn finding the proper help. bye1.gif
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Sep 2 2006, 11:53 AM) [snapback]113678[/snapback]
My point was WHY do you think she was abusing herself? Because NO ONE could love her the way she wanted to be loved. She had this great need for love. She was searching all her life for it. Rehab wouldn't have made her happy. Just as her psychoanalysis with a psychiatrist didn't help her, it only made things worse. That is why I am saying if someone truly loved her on the terms she wanted to be loved, she would have stopped abusing herself. I think we have to see the world from her perspective and not from Joe's or ours. Like I said, I think Joe loved her. But as we saw, she didn't change because of his love. She didn't change when she was married to Arthur. The right man wasn't in her life. If he was, I believe he would have taken her away from those hangups that made her so sad and done anything to make her happy. He never came along in her life.


Hi Megan. I do see your point. I really understand what you mean. Through my own experience, i abused myself, alcohol, prescription drugs, suicide attempts atleast 6 times Megan and i had a husband who loved me. What i needed Megan was to get down to the bottom of MY pain, childhood issues, molestations, abandonment from my father, my mothers alcoholism. I had get help for myself first before i could begin to be in a healthy relationship. That goes for anyone. She was searching all her life for her father, i understand that VERy much. She wasn't going to find that in Joe or Arthur. Just like i didn't find it in my ex-husband. The right man wouldn't have made the difference Megan. She needed therapy to fill the void her father put there and her mother put there. NOt in another man. Why do women think men will fill a void in
a womans life? Women need to stop seeing that they need a man to fill voids. A man and a woman are equal partners. Marilyn needed help. Not from a husband!
meganmarilyn
So, rehab would have saved Marilyn, is that what you are saying? Since we know that Joe and Arthur weren't the loves of her life. Once again, you are taking your own experiences and using that to determine Marilyn's outcome. It doesn't work. I guess we have to just disagree on this subject and move on.


QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Sep 2 2006, 10:53 AM) [snapback]113678[/snapback]
My point was WHY do you think she was abusing herself? Because NO ONE could love her the way she wanted to be loved. She had this great need for love. She was searching all her life for it. Rehab wouldn't have made her happy. Just as her psychoanalysis with a psychiatrist didn't help her, it only made things worse. That is why I am saying if someone truly loved her on the terms she wanted to be loved, she would have stopped abusing herself. I think we have to see the world from her perspective and not from Joe's or ours. Like I said, I think Joe loved her. But as we saw, she didn't change because of his love. She didn't change when she was married to Arthur. The right man wasn't in her life. If he was, I believe he would have taken her away from those hangups that made her so sad and done anything to make her happy. He never came along in her life.
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Sep 2 2006, 01:09 PM) [snapback]113689[/snapback]
So, rehab would have saved Marilyn, is that what you are saying? Since we know that Joe and Arthur weren't the loves of her life. Once again, you are taking your own experiences and using that to determine Marilyn's outcome. It doesn't work. I guess we have to just disagree on this subject and move on.


Megan, first, i opened up to you and wrote personal experiences on the board for all to see now. Two, why do you say "once again i am taking my own experiences" megan? Why do you say "It doesn't work"? For whom? You and i don't need to move on Megan. I don't want to move on Megan. Yes, rehab would have helped with drug and alcohol. Have you heard of the BEtty Ford Clinic? Lot's of Psychiatry also. Megan, i am not the enemy here. I made alot of sense. You are pushing me away.


Megan, why are you so angry that Joe and Arthur were not the loves of her life? bye1.gif


Why did you say "once again i am bringing my own experiences into this"? What i went through made me wiser. I just would like to know why are you so angry at people Megan??


Thank you MEgan for not answering any of my questions after i was there for you. It will never happen again. My opinions are just that, mine and i will never share them with you. Lauren
meganmarilyn
Ok, ok. You are using your own experience to say how it would affect Marilyn's. Saying the love of a man doesn't work, or it wouldn't have worked for Marilyn. Now I am angry? Sorry you feel that way, but no I am not angry. I just want you to see thru Marilyn's eyes. To her, the love of a man was the MOST important thing in her life. I am not making this up. She used pills and alcohol because it was a way to numb her from the pain she got from her own relationships with men she dated. They weren't providing the love she was always looking for. Lauren, don't be mad at me, because I am not angry with you at all. As I said, we see things differently in regards to this, that's all.

I love you and I respect your opinion. Take care!

throb.gif throb.gif throb.gif

QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Sep 2 2006, 12:35 PM) [snapback]113692[/snapback]
Megan, first, i opened up to you and wrote personal experiences on the board for all to see now. Two, why do you say "once again i am taking my own experiences" megan? Why do you say "It doesn't work"? For whom? You and i don't need to move on Megan. I don't want to move on Megan. Yes, rehab would have helped with drug and alcohol. Have you heard of the BEtty Ford Clinic? Lot's of Psychiatry also. Megan, i am not the enemy here. I made alot of sense. You are pushing me away.
Megan, why are you so angry that Joe and Arthur were not the loves of her life? bye1.gif
Why did you say "once again i am bringing my own experiences into this"? What i went through made me wiser. I just would like to know why are you so angry at people Megan??
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Sep 2 2006, 02:00 PM) [snapback]113703[/snapback]
Ok, ok. You are using your own experience to say how it would affect Marilyn's. Saying the love of a man doesn't work, or it wouldn't have worked for Marilyn. Now I am angry? Sorry you feel that way, but no I am not angry. I just want you to see thru Marilyn's eyes. To her, the love of a man was the MOST important thing in her life. I am not making this up. She used pills and alcohol because it was a way to numb her from the pain she got from her own relationships with men she dated. They weren't providing the love she was always looking for. Lauren, don't be mad at me, because I am not angry with you at all. As I said, we see things differently in regards to this, that's all.

I love you and I respect your opinion. Take care!

throb.gif throb.gif throb.gif


Just please answer my question. Your comment was not nice Megan.
Lauren Michele
I gave you really good advice, yes, through experience. If that bothers you i can't change that. I am no doctor, but i know what i had to go through to get where i am today. You sound very angry when you don't hear what you want to hear. Open up your ears, and listen, and block out the tunnel vision. I will no longer discuss this again.
marilyns_firstkiss
QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Sep 2 2006, 02:00 PM) [snapback]113703[/snapback]
Ok, ok. You are using your own experience to say how it would affect Marilyn's. Saying the love of a man doesn't work, or it wouldn't have worked for Marilyn. Now I am angry? Sorry you feel that way, but no I am not angry. I just want you to see thru Marilyn's eyes. To her, the love of a man was the MOST important thing in her life. I am not making this up. She used pills and alcohol because it was a way to numb her from the pain she got from her own relationships with men she dated. They weren't providing the love she was always looking for. Lauren, don't be mad at me, because I am not angry with you at all. As I said, we see things differently in regards to this, that's all.

I love you and I respect your opinion. Take care!

throb.gif throb.gif throb.gif



yeah,,,and thats why she left jim dougherty...because she was looking for love..noooooo, the most important thing to her was her career and being loved by millions. but even that was not enough...lauren is very much right! there was pain in marilyn so deep that even , what was it, three psychiatrists could not help.. megan, you are on the defense constantly and it irritates me...especially when lauren is so sweet.. i couldn't help but comment.
Lauren Michele
Thank you Marilyn's FirstKiss. I do notice that too. Everything is okay between her and i now. We talked a little. You are so sweet to say that. I want to give you a heart but my smilies aren't working :( . I really appreciate people coming to my defense because sometimes i wonder...is it me? xoxoxox Love, Lauren
meganmarilyn
Why the anger now? Are you telling me Marilyn didn't place love at the very top of her list in terms of happiness? Love didn't mean that much to her? Stop attacking me, you obviously don't know Marilyn's true feelings on this subject. Marilyn has always said her marriage to Jim Dougherty was an arrainged marriage. She referred to that marriage as a sort of friendship with sexual privileges. She wasn't in love with Jim enough to stay married. With Joe Dimaggio, she loved him but she too has said in interviews they would still have been married if sex was all it took to keep a marriage together. Marilyn yes loved her career, but at the end of her life, she wanted to have a family and have kids. Not being able to have kids was one of the reasons for her downfall into pills and alcohol. As for her relationships, she also said at one time that people were only nice to her when they could get something from her. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Marilyn wanted unconditional love and wanted someone to love her the same way she was willing to love. That was her search all her life. If you don't believe that was the main reason she was so sad then you are just being ignorant.

Once again I am not mad or angry at anyone. I am just stating my opinion and views on this sujbect. No need to attack me. throb.gif



QUOTE(marilyns_firstkiss @ Sep 3 2006, 07:04 AM) [snapback]113816[/snapback]
yeah,,,and thats why she left jim dougherty...because she was looking for love..noooooo, the most important thing to her was her career and being loved by millions. but even that was not enough...lauren is very much right! there was pain in marilyn so deep that even , what was it, three psychiatrists could not help.. megan, you are on the defense constantly and it irritates me...especially when lauren is so sweet.. i couldn't help but comment.
Nickalex2305
I could be full of POOP here but,,I think she treated herself like POOP cause Robert kennedy the one who made her feel good,,,,dumped her because of the MOB & Government,,,,Im thinking she got pounded by robert and thought he really loved her,,and he didnt,,,,so as a already depressed person she turned to PILLS ,,,, there was a phone call she recieved,,the last call she recieved was robert kennedy,,and As I took it,,,,she wasnt happy with the results,,,,,, which i understand,,,,, she was just to vulnerable at that point to be wham bam thank you mammed like that,,, ya know,,, just my opinion,,,,dimaggio from what i understand was depressed from the time Marilyn denied him,,,,he was a recluse until his death,,but when he died they pulled numerous trash bags of cold hard cash from his place,,,,, He really loved Marilyn,,,she had her mind on new bigger and better things,,,robert,,,,Joe would have been the best for her,,,had she went back to him,,,,bet they both would be alive today!!!! Lonely ness is a Motha console.gif throb.gif
Lauren Michele
I see we agree on how she passed Nick. I just don't know if Robert pushed her to the edge or not. That is what people say. None of my smilies are working!!! Ooops korea got accidentley added.
marilyns_firstkiss
QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Sep 3 2006, 09:36 AM) [snapback]113821[/snapback]
Why the anger now? Are you telling me Marilyn didn't place love at the very top of her list in terms of happiness? Love didn't mean that much to her? Stop attacking me, you obviously don't know Marilyn's true feelings on this subject. Marilyn has always said her marriage to Jim Dougherty was an arrainged marriage. She referred to that marriage as a sort of friendship with sexual privileges. She wasn't in love with Jim enough to stay married. With Joe Dimaggio, she loved him but she too has said in interviews they would still have been married if sex was all it took to keep a marriage together. Marilyn yes loved her career, but at the end of her life, she wanted to have a family and have kids. Not being able to have kids was one of the reasons for her downfall into pills and alcohol. As for her relationships, she also said at one time that people were only nice to her when they could get something from her. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Marilyn wanted unconditional love and wanted someone to love her the same way she was willing to love. That was her search all her life. If you don't believe that was the main reason she was so sad then you are just being ignorant.

Once again I am not mad or angry at anyone. I am just stating my opinion and views on this sujbect. No need to attack me. throb.gif


megan i feel like you can not truly understand a persons psyche, like mm's, if you have not gone through some really horrible things at a young age...lauren knows what i mean..i will not give my life away on this board, but i will say everything lauren said brought back some horrid memories for me...anyway, marilyn may have received unconditional love from a man but i don't think she was able to reciprocate. i think she had to many problems to be able to give a man that same love back. also, you may be right about the children thing, but before, you said that a man's love would have made her happy. and this is NOT true! and honey this does not make me ignorant..this makes me wise to reality..no one person can truly make another person happy...if that is the case you would be weak and dependent...i think marilyn lost a real trust in any human being because she really had no one as a child.. and that would be hard to live with...also her fears of abandonment..there are so many things,,,but i just do not have time to type it all out...i must go,,,but we can discuss this further if you like....we are entitled to our opinions, but now i am trying to convince you to change yours..no hard feelings from my side either...
meganmarilyn
You are giving me your opinions on what love is. You are not telling me what Marilyn thought of love or what she wanted out of it. Show me ANY quote of Marilyn's that she 'lost a real trust in any human being'? Or that love wasn't her #1 priority in living? I'm waiting. I am not talking about your own experiences or other members here. I am talking about Marilyn's and hers alone. That is what I am trying to get thru to you. Are you telling me you cannot look into Marilyn's eyes and tell me love wasn't important to her? When she was a toddler, when she was a teenager, when she was a young adult, when she was a mature woman at the end of her life. Go bring up any picture from any period of her life, and look directly into her eyes. If you can't see the sadness, the longing for love, then I don't know what to say. These aren't dreams I am making up or my own personal feelings. These were Marilyn's dreams.



QUOTE(marilyns_firstkiss @ Sep 3 2006, 06:37 PM) [snapback]113886[/snapback]
megan i feel like you can not truly understand a persons psyche, like mm's, if you have not gone through some really horrible things at a young age...lauren knows what i mean..i will not give my life away on this board, but i will say everything lauren said brought back some horrid memories for me...anyway, marilyn may have received unconditional love from a man but i don't think she was able to reciprocate. i think she had to many problems to be able to give a man that same love back. also, you may be right about the children thing, but before, you said that a man's love would have made her happy. and this is NOT true! and honey this does not make me ignorant..this makes me wise to reality..no one person can truly make another person happy...if that is the case you would be weak and dependent...i think marilyn lost a real trust in any human being because she really had no one as a child.. and that would be hard to live with...also her fears of abandonment..there are so many things,,,but i just do not have time to type it all out...i must go,,,but we can discuss this further if you like....we are entitled to our opinions, but now i am trying to convince you to change yours..no hard feelings from my side either...
mels
I was about to close this thread. Instead I am posting this with the hopes that this thread can remain open without too many souls beeing hurt. I will need to close it down though if things keep evolving that way.

Obviously no one will ever know what was in Marilyn's mind... only SHE knew and I guess it's better that way. Now we can only imagine, along with our own experiences what she went through and how she felt about things. It means that when we discuss such issues, we often have to open a lot to eachother, like Lauren did with a lot of courage.
I can not tolerate that someones who opens up like that then gets pushed away like Lauren was, yet I understand at the same time that we can't all agree, hence the heated exchanges in this thread.

What I want from these boards is that we all respect eachothers points of view and mostly understand and accept that no one here knows what was in Marilyn's mind, and that we all IMAGINE what she was feeling and why. We all do that according to our own experiences, we tend to reflect them on everything and everyone, which is normal and comforting at the same time. It is this personal vision that made us feel close to her, and it is inevitable that we don't all agree on that.

Please feel free to debate on such things... but always remember that the keyword here is R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

If you don't agree, say that you don't, and say why if you wish, but please don't dare other members and tell them how they should think or feel.
As I said, no one here knows.
We all have our own personal faiths, we built them according to our own experiences, yet we have one common passion, the one that lead us all here. Let's not destroy that.

Thank you.
dlmagoo
QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Sep 2 2006, 02:53 AM) [snapback]113678[/snapback]
My point was WHY do you think she was abusing herself? Because NO ONE could love her the way she wanted to be loved. She had this great need for love. She was searching all her life for it. Rehab wouldn't have made her happy. Just as her psychoanalysis with a psychiatrist didn't help her, it only made things worse. That is why I am saying if someone truly loved her on the terms she wanted to be loved, she would have stopped abusing herself. I think we have to see the world from her perspective and not from Joe's or ours. Like I said, I think Joe loved her. But as we saw, she didn't change because of his love. She didn't change when she was married to Arthur. The right man wasn't in her life. If he was, I believe he would have taken her away from those hangups that made her so sad and done anything to make her happy. He never came along in her life.



Mels.. I totally agree with you.. Someone's experiences in life should NEVER be trivialized because they don't happen to match what someone else thinks is the norm.

And as for Marilyn.. well.. it's always going to be a mystery why she did what she did in her life.. She was beautiful, sexy, shy, vulnerable, sad and actually a combination of almost every adjective you can apply to someone, she was it. She lived her life trying to put her two selves together as one, Norma Jeane and Marilyn... She was tired of being these two seperate people, tired of never finding the one person that wanted Norma Jeane the "girl next door" instead of MARILYN the "SEX GODDESS". Well.. Except for Joe..., he loved Norma Jeane.. but unfortunately he married Marilyn... he was the one true love of her life. She couldnt be the life he wanted... He wanted the housewife/mother/good Italian girl... She was none of that.. not that she didn't want to.. but Marilyn got in the way... This turmoil in her life caused her to be depressed, use drugs and alcohol to take the edge off and what eventually killed her, or rather, got her killed.

Another problem I think is that I'm not sure Dr Greeson was doing what was in her best interest as far as her therapy was concerned. I think he loved working with MM.. loved the idea of being her Dr.. but also that held a lot of power for him.. She said herself that she was confused by what he was telling her about her past and things going on in the current.. My question would be.. what was he doing telling her ANYTHING.. feedback is one thing.. but to put your own spin on a situation is a definite NO-NO for a therapist.. One reason why all these stories of repressed memories sound so flaky is because most times the therapist is putting their own ideas into the head of someone that isn't stable enough to tell the difference between fact and the fiction..

MHO marilynbybrandon_190.gif

Dee
Lauren Michele
Thank you Mels throb.gif
ellen
lauren michele console.gif marilyns_firstkiss console.gif
the reason i fell in love with marilyn is because she was raped as a child, when i was growing up all the magazines i read talked of famous stars and how perfect they were and i felt like i couldn't relate to any of them. then there was marilyn and i believed she got me thumbup1.gif she knew what i'd suffered at the hands of my uncle who used me as his toy no.gif
i covered my walls with her posters and bought everything i could on her and suddenly my life was going somewhere, i thought if i was blonde and wore my make up perfect like marilyns i could escape people wouldn't know i was dirty and soiled.i was fine for a while the monroe magic seemed to be working.
but the thoughts of my past and how i felt about myself kept creeping back, i then moved on like lauren to over doses followed by drug abuse anything to escape my past and pretend i was doing ok. thinking the guy i was with would make everything ok and trying to be what i thought every one wanted me to be. nothing made me happy i was in turmoil.
the only way to change things was to deal with my past and i agree with lauren the only way to go forward is to go backwards and work on the inside instead of the outside
i feel marilyn had similar thoughts about herself and her own childhood ( don't get me wrong guys i don't think i'm like marilyn) its just how i relate to her
love and hugs ellen xxx
ps i don't think any guy would have made her happy until marilyn dealt with her past and learnt how to love herself xxx
Lauren Michele
console.gif Ellen, thank you for sharing your painful experiences with us. I know that i am not alone, even to the point of dying my hair as a teen so blonde and wearing so much makeup you opened up my eyes as to why i did it. You probably know of my suicide attempts from reading my posts and inner turmoil such as yourself ellen. Being raped as a child is the most severe act a girl has to endure, and my gosh especially from your uncle. I am so sorry. throb.gif I hope by opening up you find sense of strength as i have because we are on a Marilyn Monroe site and she had to face hell as a girl. throb.gif
We share a common bond ellen. And you are so right. Marilyn never would have been truley happy in any relationship until she was healed from her past. From her Father's abandonment.
Thank you again Ellen. xoxoxo Love Lauren cheekkiss.gif
marilyns_firstkiss
wow, cry.gif maybe this is what alot of us have in common with marilyn...in order to escape our own turbulent childhoods, we resorted to this fantasy character...we could mimic marilyn in order to be innocent, glamorous , sexy, blonde...whatever...it helped us get through the tough times...especially,,,for me atleast, to look at her picture and know where she came from,,,and to see that her dreams came true,,,its very inspiring! anyhow, thanks to ellen and lauren for sharing your stories..my heart goes out to both of you...i do feel better knowing that we have all suffered in one way or another and none of us are alone throb.gif
and thanks to mels for intervening cheekkiss.gif
ellen
group hugs cheekkiss.gif console.gif cheekkiss.gif console.gif
Lauren Michele
console.gif console.gif console.gif bye1.gif
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