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sabine
Could have Marilyn Monroe really committed suicide?
In my opinion, yes.
According to all Information available...marilyn was very upset and depressed the last few weeks before her death. She almost overdosed at the Cal neva Lodge after being cruelly dumped by the kennedy circle....her last weekend alive.
The next week she purchased 25 nembutals on the sly, all of which were found in her system the very next day.
The fact that she bought them behind her psychiatrists back and waited untill she was alone to take them points toward premeditation.
Much has been made about the fact that there was nothing in the stomach at the time of the authopsy.....marilyn had been living on a steady diet of pills, alcohol and little else for a while (just look how thin she had become).....
25 pills, if held in hand, are not a HUGE AMOUNT physically to consumne....the question should be : WHY would there be a trace of 25 pills in a stomach used to taking these drugs, without food in a habitual user???
In a laboratory test mimicking the effects of a stomach it took less than 10 minutes to COMPLETELY dissolve all 25 pills....less than an hour for them to be completely vanished from the stomach.....
A tell-tale sign would be irritation left behind in the stomach lining and that is precidely what Marilyn's authopsy showed.....hemorraging of the stomach lining.
SOMETHING had definetly passed thru.....
marilyn's death is no big mystery to me.....it get's complicated when unfounded murder theories and false information get taken as "fact".
An Injection, into the heart or elsehwhere, would have left an injectionsite not to be missed....i find the "killer enema" theory specifically offensive.....much has been made of a 'discolaration' in the colon that could have been produced in death by a slew of other means....not to mention the fact that marilyn's digestive system must have taken a beating due to all the drugabuse.
And anyway, the enema would result in 25 nembutals in the blood, incidently the same amount as the prescription filled the day before?
That's a little too much of a coincidence for me to accept.
The enema theory is based on the desire to hold somebody responsible for Marilyn's death. But besides a whole lot of speculation there really is no concrete proof this enema ever took place.....
Besides, how many cases have we heard of where people got killed with enemas??? None that i know of.


sabine
mels
You know Sabine, and to be completly honest, when I read your posts a while back (last year and before), I couldn't disagree more with you, when you considered and thought that Marilyn HAD committed suicide.

Now, the more I think about it, the more I think that she, indeed, could have. The very same reasons I thought justified the fact that no, she had projects for her life etc are now also reasons that I can see could not be big enough for her to resist to a depressive period an evening where she was feeling extremely bad.

Yes, she was getting her own house. But she was alone in it.
Yes, she was getting back to the SGTG set. But she didn't like the script or the movie.
Yes, she had decided to fire Eunice and company. But it didn't change the fact that she was a sick and terribly confused woman who really needed medical help.
And mostly, she didn't have any friends without an agenda directly related to her. Sometimes it must have been hard, to look back at all those pretty and nice things in her life and realize they were all a make believe (to use her words).

Having been a depressed person, I know how you look at things and always see the bad side of EVEN the best things in your life. And I know it's the main symptom of depression. So why could it not have happened to her?

On the downside, I have always believed that Marilyn was a survivor, no matter how dark her ideas were, no matter how many times she tried to call for help. And this is to me, contradictory with suicide... That's why I still can't make up my mind... blink.gif

I know that the scientific facts tend to put the "accidental" thesis aside, though I don't agree with the experiment in the Discovery Channel documentary (I had made another post regarding that matter) and because of this mistake in the experiment, I still believe that it could have been an "accident", and by that I meant another cry for help from Marilyn, which, this time was fatal.

As you see, things are still pretty much in conflict in my little head but I know also consider suicide as a possibility, while it used to be totally out there for me wink3.gif
Nina
I do not believe that Marilyn commited suicide.

She would have left a note to friends (I'm almost sure about that, don't ask me why but I am) and I don't think she would have prefered a death like that (I mean in the nude, without a note) - this kind of death isn't looking like her...

I'm pretty sure that Marilyn had a terrible death fight and it was very dirty the way she died (maybe that was the reason why Mrs. Murray was washing her bedsheet and all). If she really wanted to commit suicide, she would have taken only sleeping pills that you sleep softly and never woke up again.

Marilyn knew the pills she took over the years, I'm pretty sure that she never wanted to die like that. That's why an accident sounds more possible to me, even if I don't think, that someone can take 25 pills or more by accident.

For me it could only be an accident by her doctors (they didn't know about each other injections) and her value of pills or she was murdered.

Another thing is the broken window in her bedroom. Couldn't it be possible that she by herself broke it to get Mrs. Murray alarmed? And than they called the ambulance but it was too late?

However, I do not believe in the suicide theory no.gif
Tara
I love this quote from Judy Garland, it somes up my own feelings on the subject:

"I don't think Marilyn really meant to harm herself. It was partly because she had too many pills available, then was deserted by her friends. You shouldn't be told you're completely irresponsible and be left alone with too much medication."
crash32002
This theory has it's holes for me. The key witnesses that were at Marilyn's house couldn't get their stories straight, and that's strange to me. There are numerous other holes, that just completely tare down this theory.

All though I don't agree with everything said in "The Last Days Of Marilyn Monroe" by Donald H. Wolfe. I do feel that it gives a lot of good information, and Wolfe presents information that completely dismisses suicide.
hazy
QUOTE(crash32002 @ Oct 21 2004, 02:02 PM)
This theory has it's holes for me. The key witnesses that were at Marilyn's house couldn't get their stories straight, and that's strange to me. There are numerous other holes, that just completely tare down this theory.

All though I don't agree with everything said in "The Last Days Of Marilyn Monroe" by Donald H. Wolfe. I do feel that it gives a lot of good information, and Wolfe presents information that completely dismisses suicide.
[snapback]64430[/snapback]




I feel the same way. I read this book as well and after reading it, I just can't justify believing it was suicide.
GarlandLvr
QUOTE(Tara @ Oct 21 2004, 01:04 PM)
I love this quote from Judy Garland, it somes up my own feelings on the subject:

"I don't think Marilyn really meant to harm herself. It was partly because she had too many pills available, then was deserted by her friends. You shouldn't be told you're completely irresponsible and be left alone with too much medication."
[snapback]64425[/snapback]


You quoted Judy! throb.gif
the_Mmmm_girl
QUOTE(Nina @ Oct 17 2004, 09:41 PM)
I do not believe that Marilyn commited suicide.

She would have left a note to friends (I'm almost sure about that, don't ask me why but I am) and I don't think she would have prefered a death like that (I mean in the nude, without a note) - this kind of death isn't looking like her...

I'm pretty sure that Marilyn had a terrible death fight and it was very dirty the way she died (maybe that was the reason why Mrs. Murray was washing her bedsheet and all). If she really wanted to commit suicide, she would have taken only sleeping pills that you sleep softly and never woke up again.

Marilyn knew the pills she took over the years, I'm pretty sure that she never wanted to die like that. That's why an accident sounds more possible to me, even if I don't think, that someone can take 25 pills or more by accident.

For me it could only be an accident by her doctors (they didn't know about each other injections) and her value of pills or she was murdered.

Another thing is the broken window in her bedroom. Couldn't it be possible that she by herself broke it to get Mrs. Murray alarmed? And than they called the ambulance but it was too late?

However, I do not believe in the suicide theory no.gif
[snapback]64087[/snapback]


Nina you took the words right out my mouth!
Nina
I was wondering, why nobody said something about it (agreed or disagreed wink3.gif) but well, I'm glad at least one hug.gif has the same thoughts and feelings like I have.

redsitting.gif
jeharsy
Personally i USED to beleive the JFK conspiracy that they killed marilyn but now eventually I have arranged my ideas and i think it was accidental because i think that Marilyn was a strong person and I do beleive it was accidental. BUt again is just my opinion.
celifacejones
"In a laboratory test mimicking the effects of a stomach it took less than 10 minutes to COMPLETELY dissolve all 25 pills....less than an hour for them to be completely vanished from the stomach....."

You've certainly got a point there. I've wondered the same thing.

But, even if there was no pill residue in her stomach it should've come up in her intestine which it did NOT. Also, I think the details of what happened before she died seem to over shadow those very important details post-mortem. The physical evidence left by her body just does not match with those of a normal overdose victim. It is widely known that she tried to commit suicide by overdosing on pills before and those showed the signs (which is convulsions, pills in victims mouth (because stomach spasms and rejects them) etc.). The truth is if in that last night she would have taken 25 (which I think it was actually 25 nembutals and 8 chloral hydrate * the amount of concentraion found in her blood*) nembutals she would've gone into convulsions, which is why the fact that no pill residue was found is so important.

Aside from that MM's body was found in solidiers sleeping stance, completely straight, which is NOT a normal way a nembutal overdose plays out. Nembutal overdose, if not found in time, victims are usually found in the fetal position.

And most importantly Marilyn had lividity on her back, so if she had in fact died in the position she was found lividity on her back would not make sense, it just does not happen. I have seen plenty of pictures of victims and I have not seen one single case where the victim is lying face down and comes up with slight lividity on their back.

- those are just the facts, I really don't know what happened that night. I wasn't there.

But if I had to guess, I don't think she did.
Nina
Damn, oh how I would love to express my feelings but my english isn't that good with all the medicine things... but however, I couldn't more agree with you, Celina!

My thoughts are, nobody wouldn't doubt the suicide theory if the facts would fit but there are just so many questions, who could not come to terms with that, what Dr. Greenson and everyone said.

Those are facts (it doesn't matter, if your a celebrity or not) like

- lividity on her back
- rigor mortis (she must have been died much earlier)
- the position she was found in bed
- no pills in her stomach

Facts, who are mysterious only in Marilyn's case

- no water or other drinks was found at her bed to take all those pills
- the broken window
- people did wash her clothes and bed sheets
- people haven't been heard (like Norman Jeffries, who was there... etc)
- the ambulance / hospital story

Only a view points I've counted. I can't understand, that it looks like noboday was really interested in to find out -
in 1962 --------43 yrs------------> 2005
sabine
Hi Nina....how are you??? it's sabine.
I wanted to discuss your post with you a little bit. Ok, the suicide note.
Most people do NOT leave suicide notes, actually.
The lividity on her back was most likely caused by Marilyn laying on her back at the morgue (i apologize profously for this terrible conversation but i have to explain this stuff and there's no other way)....
Rigor mortis: yes, she died some time after ingesting the pills which most likely was in the early evening.....she most likely died within a few short hours of that.
The 'no pills in her stomach thing' can be simply explained...in a heavy drug user the body becomes so used to the drugs that they move swiflt thru the system.
It only takes about 10 minutes to disolve all the pills in the stomach and from there, since everything is liquified, it takes a short time to reach the intestines.
She also had no food with those pills, only speeding the absorption.
The empty stomach has been a mis-understood for years.

Other points in your post that i'd like to adresse:

There WAS a waterglass half full found at marilyn's bedsite. The waterglass can be seen in 'christie's catalogue' of marilyn's belongings.

The broken window: when you break a window glass will fall unto both sides of the window, not just one. It is impossible for glass to only fall to one side. As you pull back your hand the implement used to break the window glass will pull back glass which falls unto the side you're standing.

Washing of sheets and bedclothes: There is no proof for this whatsoever nor was it mentioned in the police report (it would have also been investigated)..mrs. murray was simply packing up her belongings and this was miscontrued by sgt. clemmons as something 'sinister'.

Norman Jeffries, mrs.murray's handy man son-in-law, was most certainly NOT on the scene all night long. His story was told by Donald Wolfe who also believes marilyn was killed by Greenson's "big needle"...needless to say, i do not put my trust into anything Wolfe brings forth, including Norman Jeffries's story.

Anybody interested further please email me at :

zmart4ever@yahoo.com sabine
stangifford
hi all,

some things dont add up in the last post, when a cadaver lies in the morgue, the cadaver would have been dead several hours and so there would be no evidence of lividity on the back, therefore the marks would have had to have occured before she reached the morgue.
The water glass was not in the room when sgt. Clemmons' initial statement, and so points to the fact it could have been planted. Im not saying it wasnt an accident, that she died, im just saying that things were covered up to avoid any suspicions and/or framing. I believe it certainly wasnt a suicide.

Also, any major disturbances in the stomach would be detected and would cause the vomit reaction, no matter how used to taking pills the person is, this reaction would still occur given large quantities. There were no signs of vomitus, as Celina mentioned. Laboratory tests never reveal true results due to the inability to consider all factors that occur in vivo.

The only way any of us will ever know is through the information that the 'missing' organs hold, but I guess we will never know.
sabine
ok, a waterglass WAS present and there is a photo of it....would Greenson or Murray 'sneak' it into the picture later on? Highly unlikely concidering how many people were crawling all over the scene at that point....
The authopsy proves that Marilyn died laying on her stomach with one head to the side. Later her face was moved to the other side (probobly by Dr. Greenson and Dr. Engelberg as they examined her)....
Vomiting isn't always the case with overdoses....and the fact that the drugs were in overabundance found in the bloodstream means they definetly got there....furthermore, the stomach hemorraging also proves something vicious pased thru there....
Last but not least, Marilyn's organs didn't go 'missing"..they were discarded when an overdose was established. Sadly, i wish they hadn't done that. But they did. So here we are speculating....


sabine
Lauren Michele
I did not know Marilyn but in my heart of hearts, I truly believe our Marilyn did NOT commit suicide. Nor do I believe she accidently took too many pills. I believe the Kennedy's were involved. For atleast 4 hours I believe someone, or someones had to debug her home that is why her poor body lay their and had Rigor Mortis. She may have died on the forth some say the fifth. Her diary was full of info about John F. and Robert . She wanted to come clean and let it be known she loved John, having an affair with him all was about to come out and his reputation would have been destroyed. Her friends do claim Marilyn was destraught that evening. From what I have learned, she was to wed Joe again. I learned this years ago. Her bedroom window was broken outside in being that noone could have access to her bedroom door. Dr. Greenson? Maybe ? Perhaps not? The president had connections. Dr. Greenson I am sure followed orders just as Marilyn's house keeper did, changing her story every time she told it. Can someone tell me where were all of the pills in Marilyn digestive tract. Did she have alot? I remember hearing no. WHy was Marilyns house bugged? They heard Marilyn and John having sex. Please bear with me. I watched A documentary back in 1991 or 92. Forgive me, the name escapes me but the incredible hulk (the actor) narrated it and did a wonderful job. Unfortunatley, there are more questions than answers except he convinced me Marilyn did not take her own life on that August night.

I totally rambled forgive me. I did not read the posts before me. I had to get this off my chest that I believe Marilyn Monroe was murdered.
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Apr 7 2006, 12:05 PM) [snapback]102456[/snapback]
I did not know Marilyn but in my heart of hearts, I truly believe our Marilyn did NOT commit suicide. Nor do I believe she accidently took too many pills. I believe the Kennedy's were involved. For atleast 4 hours I believe someone, or someones had to debug her home that is why her poor body lay their and had Rigor Mortis. She may have died on the forth some say the fifth. Her diary was full of info about John F. and Robert . She wanted to come clean and let it be known she loved John, having an affair with him all was about to come out and his reputation would have been destroyed. Her friends do claim Marilyn was destraught that evening. From what I have learned, she was to wed Joe again. I learned this years ago. Her bedroom window was broken outside in being that noone could have access to her bedroom door. Dr. Greenson? Maybe ? Perhaps not? The president had connections. Dr. Greenson I am sure followed orders just as Marilyn's house keeper did, changing her story every time she told it. Can someone tell me where were all of the pills in Marilyn digestive tract. Did she have alot? I remember hearing no. WHy was Marilyns house bugged? They heard Marilyn and John having sex. Please bear with me. I watched A documentary back in 1991 or 92. Forgive me, the name escapes me but the incredible hulk (the actor) narrated it and did a wonderful job. Unfortunatley, there are more questions than answers except he convinced me Marilyn did not take her own life on that August night.

I totally rambled forgive me. I did not read the posts before me. I had to get this off my chest that I believe Marilyn Monroe was murdered.



Boy did i do a 180 degree turn around. smile1.gif
marilyns_firstkiss
QUOTE(sabine @ May 16 2005, 09:57 PM) [snapback]78215[/snapback]
Vomiting isn't always the case with overdoses....and the fact that the drugs were in overabundance found in the bloodstream means they definetly got there....furthermore, the stomach hemorraging also proves something vicious pased thru there....



Dr. Noguchi described her stomach lining as "submucosal petechial hemorrhage diffusely". Would
this mean the large amount of barbiturates sitting in her stomach caused bleeding?

Not exactly, Submucosal basically means just under the skin. Petechial means small red spots just under
the skin caused by pinpoint bleeding which is what the Hemorrhage also means. Diffusely means spread
around and not concentrated in one spot. So this was an area of irritation and not bleeding as you would
think of it. Barbiturates are not irritating to the stomach but Chloral Hydrate is very irritating. To quote
Goodman and Gillman "Chloral Hydrate is quite irritating to the skin and mucous membranes.
Gastrointestinal side effects are particularly likely to occur if taken on an empty stomach. Gastric necrosis
{damage to tissues} has occurred after intoxicating doses."
Nembutal as with most barbiturates are actually recommended to be taken on an empty stomach. So the
irritation on Marilyn's stomach lining was most likely caused by Chloral Hydrate.





QUOTE(sabine @ May 16 2005, 09:57 PM) [snapback]78215[/snapback]
Last but not least, Marilyn's organs didn't go 'missing"..they were discarded when an overdose was established. Sadly, i wish they hadn't done that. But they did. So here we are speculating....
sabine


Did they test the rest of the organs?
Thomas Noguchi {coroner} sent the blood, liver, kidney, stomach and contents, urine and intestine to
Raymond Abernathy {head toxicologist of LA county} for testing. This was done under the supervision of
Theodore Curphy {chief medical examiner of LA county}. In the digestive system, only the stomach and
upper part of the small intestine were tested for drugs. No traces were found so Abernathy didn't test any
further for drugs taken orally. Noguchi asked again for further tests but the organs had already been
thrown away. If the lower part of the small intestine showed no traces of orally taken drugs then the next
place to look was the kidney which is where unused orally taken drugs would have ended up. This would
be the final part of the chain before leaving the body in the urine or feces. If no traces were found in the
kidneys then it would prove Marilyn did not take any oral drugs.

Would Abernathy have any reason to hide this fact?
All of the toxicology tests were performed at UCLA Medical Center. Both Abernathy and Dr. Greenson
were on the board there. Dr. Greenson was the last doctor to see Marilyn and admitted to giving her
sedatives. If no orally consumed drugs were found then Dr. Greenson would have been implicated.
Maryleen_McBeat
In the whole, it seems strange that Marilyn killed herself. She didnít leave a note, if believe to reports and words, she had to swallow many pills, but itís rather difficult to swallow them very fast and havenít got a vomit and a loss of consciousness.
Since her death people say different things and her death became more tangled. Pity, that from the first day of her death, the police rejected ďmurderĒ, or they decided not to intrigue this case?
Sometimes I think that the true report on her death exists, but itís like a State secret, but sure, some one knew everything!
I donít think that Marilyn wanted to say: Iíll die, and I want that people become to think of me more after it, they will try to know the secret of my death for years.
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(Maryleen_McBeat @ Nov 18 2006, 01:08 AM) [snapback]120246[/snapback]
In the whole, it seems strange that Marilyn killed herself. She didnít leave a note, if believe to reports and words, she had to swallow many pills, but itís rather difficult to swallow them very fast and havenít got a vomit and a loss of consciousness.
Since her death people say different things and her death became more tangled. Pity, that from the first day of her death, the police rejected ďmurderĒ, or they decided not to intrigue this case?
Sometimes I think that the true report on her death exists, but itís like a State secret, but sure, some one knew everything!
I donít think that Marilyn wanted to say: Iíll die, and I want that people become to think of me more after it, they will try to know the secret of my death for years.



I beleive she died of an accidental overdose, and it sounds like it doesnt make sense to some. I believe she had a lethal dosage of Nembutal in her placed rectally, not against her will but to help her sleep. She was known to give herself meds rectally. Something went terribley wrong that evening. Either, by her own hands or her doctor or by Ms. Murray. THen, the coverup began.
zarabell
QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Nov 26 2006, 04:09 AM) [snapback]120761[/snapback]
I beleive she died of an accidental overdose, and it sounds like it doesnt make sense to some. I believe she had a lethal dosage of Nembutal in her placed rectally, not against her will but to help her sleep. She was known to give herself meds rectally. Something went terribley wrong that evening. Either, by her own hands or her doctor or by Ms. Murray. THen, the coverup began.



hi where are your signature pictures from ?
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(zarabell @ Dec 11 2006, 12:40 PM) [snapback]121770[/snapback]
hi where are your signature pictures from ?




Hi Zarabell, I have changed them so many times in the past week...do you mean the one I have now? If so Californiadude made it for me. Also, Jemaniac is FANTASTIC when it comes to banners. I bet she would be happy to make you one. I hope that helps. coolio.gif
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Nov 25 2006, 11:09 PM) [snapback]120761[/snapback]
I beleive she died of an accidental overdose, and it sounds like it doesnt make sense to some. I believe she had a lethal dosage of Nembutal in her placed rectally, not against her will but to help her sleep. She was known to give herself meds rectally. Something went terribley wrong that evening. Either, by her own hands or her doctor or by Ms. Murray. THen, the coverup began.



To quote myself, I believed it was pills at one time, but an enema makes more sense to me now. She had given herself them before. I think something went terribley wrong. Perhaps this is why no traces of barbituates were found in her digestive tract. They were never taken. Accidental suicide still or accidental murder from her doctor?
Nickalex2305
I like you current banner,,,Hello Sweety

QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Dec 14 2006, 01:46 AM) [snapback]121917[/snapback]
To quote myself, I believed it was pills at one time, but an enema makes more sense to me now. She had given herself them before. I think something went terribley wrong. Perhaps this is why no traces of barbituates were found in her digestive tract. They were never taken. Accidental suicide still or accidental murder from her doctor?

well never know,,,
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(Nickalex2305 @ Dec 14 2006, 02:46 AM) [snapback]121918[/snapback]
I like you current banner,,,Hello Sweety



Hi, thanks hon. I thought you would!
Nickalex2305
An enema is possible thoough,,,,no trace of a enema
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(Nickalex2305 @ Dec 14 2006, 02:50 AM) [snapback]121920[/snapback]
An enema is possible thoough,,,,no trace of a enema




What kind of trace would an enema leave?
waif55
QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Nov 25 2006, 08:09 PM) *
I beleive she died of an accidental overdose, and it sounds like it doesnt make sense to some. I believe she had a lethal dosage of Nembutal in her placed rectally, not against her will but to help her sleep. She was known to give herself meds rectally. Something went terribley wrong that evening. Either, by her own hands or her doctor or by Ms. Murray. THen, the coverup began.



In Marilyn's previous suicide attempts, she did NOT leave a note. They were suppen depressive moments when she felt overwhelmed. I loathe all the conspiracy theroies which, in my opinion, cheapen her and rob her of her humanity. All of you here posting know Marilyn's life--her childhood, adolesence, early struggles, how Hollywood (and Hollywood men) treated her, her devastation in the failure of her marrige to Miller, her miscarriages, her age, her inability to change her image (all the final nude and semi-nude posing!), her genuine emotional issues, which were nothing new, only worse. Being re-hired for SGTG, even with a new director, was not going to clear up her troubles. Indeed the spector of once again facing the camera,. worrying over every sign of maturity, not caring that every gulp of champagne showed up on her face--that might have been enough to send her over the edge. Can you look at her towards the end and not see she was suffering, intensely? She was losing so much weight, that she required quite obvious padding in that beige suit, which was actually starting to look loose on her. Not healthy!

Do I believe she had involvements with the Kennedy brothers? Yes. And what a sad comment on ALL of them! Do I think Ralph Greenson made mistakes in his therpy and attitudes? Yes, but what else could he do? Look at all her other close relationships, such as the Strasbergs. They soaked her for every penny, but surely Paula couldn't have truly enjoyed being the heavy on every set? Surely even she wished MM was more profesional, less addicted, not as needy of reassurance? Greenson did what seemed to him the best thing--the thing she inspired in everyone--the opportunity to coddle and comfort her in the extreme.

Do I believe there was a cover-up? Sure. She was a world-famous movie star, dead in the middle of the night, still attached to a major studio. Yes, there were delays and discussions. I don't think Pat Newcomb was so involved, as she seemed truly disdraught (in her pajamas!) showing up at MM's house that morning.

Do I think Marilyn was insane enough to threaten a press conference to "blow the lid" off everything? Please! This is an invention of Robert Slatzer and later Jeanne Carmen. Not press conference had been scheduled for Monday. MM would have had to already made those plans. Every reporter in Hollywood would have been on alert. Isn't it funny nobody knew about it--except Robert Slatzer and J. Carmen? MM was trying to salvage her career, not destroy it. Nor was she by nature a vindictive person. Had she even attempted such a thing, Hollywood would have looked away, and MM would have been locked away. Indeed, all that was needed to silence MM was the threat of being placed again in a mental ward. Also, her hair needed bleach, her nails needed attending to. No appointments had been scheduled with her staff to prepare her for "a press conference." Donald Spoto's theory about Greenson and Euince accidentally giving MM a fatal enema--though he hints darkly it might not have been so accidental--was slander, pure and simple against two people dead and unable to defend themselves.

The Mob, the CIA, the FBI--not one real shred of evidence has ever surfaced. It's all conjecture and fantasizing. All the autopsy findings are inconclusive, not one way or another.

If you read of her final day, it is riddled with ups and downs in her mood--classic manic depression.

Alone in her messy bedroom, her mind racing with whatever had upset her--that day or for the past 36 years!--she took those pills. Perhaps she changed her mind, we'll never know.

But give her some respect as a woman who overcame tremendous odds and succeeded beyond even her own aspirations. In the end, her demons won out. Don't turn her into some crazy blonde seeking revenge, "silenced" by some powerful entity.

Rest in peace, Marilyn. You deserve some peace.
collector
I think she looks "under the influence" already in Bus Stop , kinda like Elvis in 72......you can clearly see he's high on the face.
meganmarilyn
QUOTE(waif55 @ Dec 20 2009, 05:44 AM) *
In Marilyn's previous suicide attempts, she did NOT leave a note. They were suppen depressive moments when she felt overwhelmed. I loathe all the conspiracy theroies which, in my opinion, cheapen her and rob her of her humanity. All of you here posting know Marilyn's life--her childhood, adolesence, early struggles, how Hollywood (and Hollywood men) treated her, her devastation in the failure of her marrige to Miller, her miscarriages, her age, her inability to change her image (all the final nude and semi-nude posing!), her genuine emotional issues, which were nothing new, only worse. Being re-hired for SGTG, even with a new director, was not going to clear up her troubles. Indeed the spector of once again facing the camera,. worrying over every sign of maturity, not caring that every gulp of champagne showed up on her face--that might have been enough to send her over the edge. Can you look at her towards the end and not see she was suffering, intensely? She was losing so much weight, that she required quite obvious padding in that beige suit, which was actually starting to look loose on her. Not healthy!

Do I believe she had involvements with the Kennedy brothers? Yes. And what a sad comment on ALL of them! Do I think Ralph Greenson made mistakes in his therpy and attitudes? Yes, but what else could he do? Look at all her other close relationships, such as the Strasbergs. They soaked her for every penny, but surely Paula couldn't have truly enjoyed being the heavy on every set? Surely even she wished MM was more profesional, less addicted, not as needy of reassurance? Greenson did what seemed to him the best thing--the thing she inspired in everyone--the opportunity to coddle and comfort her in the extreme.

Do I believe there was a cover-up? Sure. She was a world-famous movie star, dead in the middle of the night, still attached to a major studio. Yes, there were delays and discussions. I don't think Pat Newcomb was so involved, as she seemed truly disdraught (in her pajamas!) showing up at MM's house that morning.

Do I think Marilyn was insane enough to threaten a press conference to "blow the lid" off everything? Please! This is an invention of Robert Slatzer and later Jeanne Carmen. Not press conference had been scheduled for Monday. MM would have had to already made those plans. Every reporter in Hollywood would have been on alert. Isn't it funny nobody knew about it--except Robert Slatzer and J. Carmen? MM was trying to salvage her career, not destroy it. Nor was she by nature a vindictive person. Had she even attempted such a thing, Hollywood would have looked away, and MM would have been locked away. Indeed, all that was needed to silence MM was the threat of being placed again in a mental ward. Also, her hair needed bleach, her nails needed attending to. No appointments had been scheduled with her staff to prepare her for "a press conference." Donald Spoto's theory about Greenson and Euince accidentally giving MM a fatal enema--though he hints darkly it might not have been so accidental--was slander, pure and simple against two people dead and unable to defend themselves.

The Mob, the CIA, the FBI--not one real shred of evidence has ever surfaced. It's all conjecture and fantasizing. All the autopsy findings are inconclusive, not one way or another.

If you read of her final day, it is riddled with ups and downs in her mood--classic manic depression.

Alone in her messy bedroom, her mind racing with whatever had upset her--that day or for the past 36 years!--she took those pills. Perhaps she changed her mind, we'll never know.

But give her some respect as a woman who overcame tremendous odds and succeeded beyond even her own aspirations. In the end, her demons won out. Don't turn her into some crazy blonde seeking revenge, "silenced" by some powerful entity.

Rest in peace, Marilyn. You deserve some peace.



Suicide or not, we will never know. She has the respect of those who still love her and still are touched by her legacy. Giving our opinions on how she might have died doesn't diminish that. As for her suffering, she suffered her entire life, not just at the end. She could have picked any time in her life to end it. Anyways, just my thoughts. throb.gif
magda24
QUOTE(waif55 @ Dec 20 2009, 02:44 PM) *
But give her some respect as a woman who overcame tremendous odds and succeeded beyond even her own aspirations. In the end, her demons won out. Don't turn her into some crazy blonde seeking revenge, "silenced" by some powerful entity.

Rest in peace, Marilyn. You deserve some peace.


Nobody was disrespectful here. Funny that you say "disrespectful", given that your almost every post was about how ugly she looked, how bloated she was, what terrible clothes she wore etc. I don't want to start a fight here, but your comment made me a bit angry.
Margherita
QUOTE(waif55 @ Dec 20 2009, 03:44 PM) *
The Mob, the CIA, the FBI--not one real shred of evidence has ever surfaced. It's all conjecture and fantasizing.

In the end, her demons won out. Don't turn her into some crazy blonde seeking revenge, "silenced" by some powerful entity.


There has been shreds of evidence enough to raise questions, though in her case a proper investigation into a citizen's death was never conducted.
Certainly investigation around the case has not been all conjecture and fantasizing.

If somebody else's/somebodies' demons won out, maybe those of a powerful entity, that doesn't make her a crazy blonde.
I should say that the first declaration that she committed a suicide, managed to preserve for twenty years her image as an ever unhappy, in the end crazy blonde.

I'm not saying that some kind of a suicide attempt could be totally ruled out, but the autopsy and many experts think that option to be the most unlikely cause.

I still think 50/50 - medical error caused by somebody - murder
VanessaLapierre
No, I do not believe Marilyn commited suicide that tragic night. There's too many contradictions and evidences that it was a complot. How can anyone explain that Marilyn's body was deplaced AFTER her death and the broken window ?

Here's one documentary that I like about her death, it's very interessing !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiYSwUhCnx0

(All the others parts are linked on the page)
iheartMarilyn4ever
Yeah I'm sorry but I don't believe she killed her self. Could she have? Of course. But until I am absolutly proven wrong I'm sticking with my theory. She had a realtionship with JFK and I do beieve he wanted her out of the way. And the whole pill thing? I believe it was staged. I know alot of people disagree with me. I'm just telling you my opinion. I'm sorry if I sound bitter but for some reason this is a tough subject to me.

I think people like the illusion that Marilyn was vulerable, and helpless and depressed. Wich she was but I don't think she was to the point where she would kill herself.
Margherita
There's the CIA file (can be found in the net) that's written August 3rd !, in which she is labeled "a security risk".

That can of course be a fake, sort of "boys' humour".... tbird.gif

Joan Newman
I don't know myself. She could have committed suicide given all she went thru in her past. But I also think it possible that she could have been murdered to keep her from talking because of her relationship with the womanizing Jack Kennedy. Have you read about the mysterious murder of MARY PINCHOT MEYER, whom he was sleeping with while sleeping with Marilyn, even right after she died.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...%26tbs%3Disch:1
Margherita
I read the link - scary! Allthough MPM also seems like a person who was maybe fantasizing too much - but thanks for the link.
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