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Everlasting Star Community > The experts' lounge > Marilyn's mysterious death > General discussion
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Celia
Weīve always heard that Marilyn didnīt have any reasons to committe suicide at the time she died. That she was at her best and everything was going fine.
But is that true??
I think when someone dies then everything is seen in a different light.
Marilyn had been hired again to resume SGTG and with a better contract , and she had many offers ahead, but is that enough reason to be happy?
I can think of some reasons why Marilyn could have committed suicide. Here they go:

1- She was near her forties and she had bought a house alone: It must sound
stupid, but just think about it. For someone who needed so much to be loved
having reached that age and failed in three marriages must have been really
scary. I can imagine her all alone in that house, in a city like LA ( which I donīt
know but where I can imagine one can feel much lonelier than in New York).
I think sometimes she must have thought that she would be alone for the rest
of her life.


2- Insomnia : Believe me, I suffered from that for many years and it is awful
enough as to drive anyone crazy. And for someone like Marilyn ( if my
inability to sleep was awful, I donīt want to imagine how it would be like for
someone who had to take so many pills to sleep and then to wake up)
it must have been devastating and a good reason to put an end to her life.
Insomnia can make your days like hell. Those who have suffered from it know
what I mean.

3- Kennedy : If she ever had an affair with Robert Kennedy and he used her it
could have been the straw .

4- The feeling of always being used: All those around her were using her. It must
have been an awful feeling not knowing who to trust.

Just imagine a mixture of this things, a moment of anguish , her complete loneliness. I donīt think all the people who committe suicide are all the time depressed, I think it can happen in a moment of complete dispair. I think a lot of people who committed suicide would have regretted if they had had the chance.
In the past, though I never reached that point, I had moments of dispair where I could understand why some people would take their own life.
I think Marilyn could be gay , as she herself put it, but she had a great sadness, and all those psychological problems, and her awful loneliness which I cannot imagine. And I think those things could have been enough to make her feel that she had had enough suffering in this world. But I also think , if she had had the possibility she would have regretted it.

By this , I īm not saying she took her own life, but just implying that I think it could have been very possible.
WHat do you think?
Fav
I think you are very right Celia. If people are depressed having something to look forward to like being re-hired on SGTG or getting job offers wouldn't mean a hell of a lot on a very black day. It is very possible she took her own life or it is very possible it was an accident.
the_Mmmm_girl
- Marilyn became a homeowner for the very first time in her life... buying that house liberated her... during the last months of her life she was busy and excited.. flying back & forth to Mexico with friends to buy furniture, rugs, and other decor for that house.... I always looked at that as a sign of her growing independence not something to add to her depression and loneliness. I used to believe that that house isolated her and it was a bad move in her part.. but after reading Cursum Perficio... I saw how much effort and love she put into making that house beautiful and how it made her happy ... gardening and entertaining people.. that house was one of the best things that ever happened to her.. she finally had her very own home! I dont think Marilyn ever felt insecure about her age.... she was still as admirable and beautiful as ever... "knocking Liz Taylor off the cover of every magazine" when those SGTG pictures of her in the pool were released...... if she was insecure I dont think it has anything to do with her looks (she was in the best shape of her life) or her never finding love again......but being such a romantic I do beleive she was lonely at times :(

... I believe she was depressed before but probably not around those few days in her life... she had lots of projects lined up that month concerning more career projects.. Marilyn was a busy girl doing photoshoots and giving interviews for magazines.. and also there were news that Joe & MM were beginning to renew an intimate friendship... taking long bike rides with Joe along San Vicente Boulevard. I believe she went thru a lot of emotional trauma before but she had stuck it out.. now those last couple of months of her life were particularly good to her. Could she have commited suicide from some last minute bad news by Robert Kennedy? Sure... but I find it unlikely.. I believe MM was actually stronger than that.... I know people like to think that she was some fragile lunatic who needed to be rescued all the time.. who could snap at any minute... thats always been how she was portrayed. But I believe thats underestimating her.. she could never have gotten so far if she was that weak.
mels
QUOTE
1- Loneliness
2- Insomnia
3- Kennedy
4- The feeling of always being used


Those are the 4 main reasons listed by Celia.
While I think some of them could have been, indeed, pushing her forward to an act of suicide, I think others don't.

Loneliness... it was a tough one for her, but that's how she had always lived. Things didn't suddendly change for her. Actually at that time she was learning how to accept it, and somehow to enjoy parts of it. I don't think this could have had an impact on such a decision.

Insomnia though... it can drive you crazy, and I fully agree with you Celia. I've had my share of it in some periods and sometimes i just wanted to knock my head on the walls so hard i would pass out and finally sleep for a while, even if it meant BIG headache LOL!!!... Marilyn's case seemed to be extreme so I can't even imagine how exhausting this must have been for her. Exhaustion is a part of depression and it even deepens it, it's like a vicious circle, so I think you have put your finger on something solid here Celia! smile1.gif

Kennedy. I have to disagree with this one. Marilyn had had MANY love deceptions in the past and 99% of them didn't depress her in the suicidal behavior way. I personally think that what she had with the Kennedies, IF something happened between her and JFK and her and RFK, was just some fling, nothing serious.

The feeling of always beeing used... well... yes and no. I think she finally realized that in the last months of her life and used it in a positive way, trying to get more independant, and that's a positive point.


QUOTE
If people are depressed having something to look forward to like being re-hired on SGTG or getting job offers wouldn't mean a hell of a lot on a very black day.


I have to disagree here... Well not completly because those facts alone, indeed, couldn't have changed a thing in her depression. But if you look at the general picture, Marilyn had several projects, one of them being her house. This may sound silly but this is a very important factor of her last months. She probably was pushed into this project with the help of her doctors but she did really took things seriously and involved herself in them.
At my darkest, I couldn't EVEN have a project for the next 5 minutes. My doctors helped me putting on little projects, insignificant things for "normal" people but things that got me through my days. After almost three years of depression and therapy I'm not even to the point of having a project such as Marilyn's regarding her home. She had made a LOT of progress and the fact that she could look forward a few months means a lot to me.
Yes she probably still was depressed, but she was fighting back, and had been for several months. There are also proofs that her doctors had drastiscally reduced her Nembutal prescriptions and that she was willing to become less dependant on medecines. I can't help but see that as a positive point.

Of course, we will never know, and this is just my point of view. I've had days were even the perspective of the 5 first minutes of my day was blurry as hell, I couldn't set myself to do ONE thing... So the prospect of buying a house?... Sounds HUGE to me smile1.gif
the_Mmmm_girl
About Marilyn's depression I initially got the impression that she would just spend days in bed getting drunk and downing pills.... Now I dont really know too much about depression but are bouts of depression periodic.. like by the hour? Marilyn completed a lot of projects during those last months.. negotiating deals concerning her career, etc. could someone in complete and total depression accomplish such big things? Marilyn was working actively with contractors to renovate her hacienda, specifically detailing what she wanted done but she refused to hire an interior decorator 'cause she wanted to do the decorating herself. Also she subscribed to a plant magazine called Horticulture and was doing research concerning plants indigenous to Mexico (WOW imagine how that garden of hers would've looked like!)... she just seemed way too focused which seems contrary to what I've heard of completely depressed people who are supposed to have a hard time functioning. So now I'm confused huh.gif
Celia
I know what you mean, and itīs true that she was busy and that it seems that she had a lot of hope in the future. I have always thought this was true too.
But Iīm just trying to think from another point of view.
Look, I knew people from show business who were successful and working a lot and however they were depressed and one of them whom I knew, did committ suicide.
I am not a doctor and I am not an expert regarding depressions but Iīve seen some people depressed and I think there is not only one kind of depression. And not all depressions leave people without the energy to do anything.
Look, John Huston in his memoirs tells how a woman named Susan Flon got a necklace from Marilyn. He says everytime someone mentioned Marilyn ( after the Misfits shooting ), this womanīs eyes were filled with tears, because she knew that someway ( according to Huston all of them knew it ), that someway something awful was going to happen to her.
Miller also said that it was unavoidable when he heard of her death.
One thing is clear, something was very wrong in Marilynīs life. If everything was as great as we are putting it here she would still be alive nowadays.
No matter wether it was an accident , murder or a suicide. Her life wasnīt clean in those days. As I said I think if it had been good she would be alive and kicking.
Besides, Marilyn was always busy. She was never at home doing nothing except for short periods. While in New York she was busy with the acting classes, pshiquiatrists, etc.
Regarding her age, she looked better than ever, but Iīm sure that she must have worried of how long was she still going to keep her appeal. Most of her fame was based on this. Though I donīt think this was a reason to committ suicide.
And her house, look, my brother has just bought a new house , he moved in last month, and it looks more furnished than Marilynīs . Why was it so unfinished after so many months living inside??? And a person with money like Marilyn??
I donīt know. It doesnīt look to me as pink as some of you are painting it.
Just my thoughts. niagarasing.gif
Celia
QUOTE
house liberated herbuying that ... during the last months of her life she was busy and excited..

Yes she was busy, but was she excited? We donīt know it, we werenīt there.
Did the house liberated her?? I donīt know
QUOTE
making that house beautiful and how it made her happy ...

Did it really make her happy?? We donīt know it either
..
QUOTE
that house was one of the best things that ever happened to her
..
Only she knew if that is true.


QUOTE
she could never have gotten so far if she was that weak.


I donīt think she was weak. I think even the strongest person in this world could get under extreme circumstances to do something he or she would have regretted . No one knows where the limit is until experienced.
Well Mm girl, although I understand what you mean I think sometimes we take for granted that she was happy and going through a good period cause we have read it so many times. But was she really going through a great time??
I doubt it.

Please excuse this mess blink.gif I have used this "quote" feature for the first time and I donīt know how it works mf_w00t1.gif
God how silly I can be!! LOL
mf_w00t1.gif

Mels note: phew! LOL don't worry these quotes can be hard to work with... I'll post a little something on how to use them soon... In the meantime I helped you clean your post, hope it's okay smile1.gif
mels
QUOTE
Look, John Huston in his memoirs tells how a woman named Susan Flon got a necklace from Marilyn. He says everytime someone mentioned Marilyn ( after the Misfits shooting ), this womanīs eyes were filled with tears, because she knew that someway ( according to Huston all of them knew it ), that someway something awful was going to happen to her.
Miller also said that it was unavoidable when he heard of her death.
One thing is clear, something was very wrong in Marilynīs life. If everything was as great as we are putting it here she would still be alive nowadays.


arrow2.gif Celia, That is something I can only 100% agree with. Marilyn was leading a life that was not sane, something bad HAD to happen. It's sad but it's true. I would have actually been surprised if the contrary had happened... no.gif
If the "pink posts" you are talking about are refering to mine, I probably expressed myself wrong, because I think that her life was NOTHING like pink, on the contrary, it is for me very obscure and dark, and it's the reason why I'm fascinated by Marilyn. But I do think that she had started to take things in hand, finally. Or actually it LOOKS like. Of course we were not there, as you pointed it, so we can't say...
Her house was almost empty after several months, as you pointed out, but keep in mind that Marilyn kept traveling and such, most of the furniture had been ordered but not received at the time she died (took me up to 3 months to receive the furniture I had ordered, and I just have a little appartement biggrin.gif ). AND, no matter what, even feeling better, she still was a depressive person. Things are slow when you're in this state of mind. Some days you're ready to bring the moon back here, other days, it's hard to even get up and take a shower... wink3.gif

arrow2.gif Rita, to answer your question re. the moods and mood swings in depression... well Marilyn was bipolar, so she could indeed be in very very low and then very very high moods, in the space of a day. Yes, ONE event could have made a wonderful day turn into a horrific one. There are severe and not so sever bipolarity... A lot of depressive people are bipolar. In Marilyn's case, she was very affected by the bipolarity... Hence her famous mood swings... smile1.gif

More info on the bipolar disorder :

QUOTE
What is bipolar disorder?
Bipolar disorder (also called manic-depressive disorder) is a medical condition that causes extreme mood changes that alternate between episodes of depression and mania. You may return to a normal mood between these extremes. However, a depressive or manic episode can appear suddenly, without an obvious trigger. Although mood changes associated with bipolar disorder can be difficult, effective treatment is available.

What causes bipolar disorder?
The cause of bipolar disorder is not known. It may run in families. Bipolar disorder may be linked to problems in the balance of chemicals in the brain. It may also be linked to problems with how the endocrine system works. Another theory is that the structure or size of certain parts of the brain may be abnormal.

Who is affected by bipolar disorder?
Bipolar disorder is common and occurs equally among males and females. Over 3 million Americans—about 1% of the population—suffer from bipolar disorder, with similar rates existing in other countries.2 Bipolar disorder often begins between the ages of 15 and 24, although diagnosis and treatment may not begin until several years later.1

Certain childhood attention disorders can mimic symptoms of bipolar disorder. Research is ongoing to determine whether a connection exists between attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and bipolar disorder.3 Regardless, while symptoms can be similar, ADHD is a separate disorder that is very different from bipolar disorder and has different treatment. Your doctor can distinguish and properly diagnose ADHD with a normal evaluation. Although most cases of ADHD are not related to bipolar disorder, ADHD can occur along with bipolar disorder in children.

What can I expect when my mood changes?
The mood changes of bipolar disorder can be mild or extreme and develop gradually (over a period of days to weeks) or rapidly (within minutes or hours). The mood episodes can last from hours to months.

If your mood changes are very mild, it is possible you may not have bipolar disorder but a condition called cyclothymic disorder.

Can bipolar disorder be treated?
Bipolar disorder can be effectively treated. Treatment of bipolar disorder includes medication, counseling, and sometimes a combination of both. You and your doctor can discuss which treatment is right for you. Learning to recognize the early symptoms of your manic and depressive episodes can help, because early treatment can reduce their impact on your daily life. If bipolar disorder is not treated, it can lead to serious illness, more extended treatment, and even death due to suicide or reckless or risky behavior. It is also important that your family members learn about the disorder or get supportive counseling because bipolar disorder greatly affects the entire family.
minx_dublin
Fascinating thoughts thanks

I suffered severe depression untill a couple of years ago and the one element that scares me is the cyclical nature of depression. The fact that it comes and goes but that its very hard to predict when it will come and how soon it will be alleviated.

I suffered during some of the most wonderful periods of my life, I was excelling academically, I was in a wonderful relationship, all my family were healthly and yet my demons could creep up on me and pull me down. So I have to find myself asking does there have to be a reason on that day that week that month that she may have found herself accidentally or otherwise in a very deep black mood. She was haunted througout her life with her childhood, her mothers insanity & her lack of a true home/family. A new home, the possiblility of a new contract with a studio that had used her and spat her out, a renewal of a love interest that has sweet as it was could never have worked, DiMaggio would never ever have accepted Marilyn for the girl she truly was..I dont believe these things would have been enough to help her if she was stung once more with the pain of her past. My biggest reason for believing in the possibility of a suicide theory is the fact that Marilyn certianly had a history of overdosing & attempts on her life. No matter how much biographers differ in their opions they all seem to acknowledge this. That type of distructive pattern of behaviour is terribly difficult to break away from and in my heart I feel Marilyn finally fell victim to this.

But I admit there are times when i feel that i find the suicide theory more bearable then anything else more sinister ...so I always keep an openmind
mels
QUOTE(minx_dublin @ Jul 11 2004, 07:44 PM)
I suffered severe depression untill a couple of years ago and the one element that scares me is the cyclical nature of depression.  The fact that it comes and goes but that its very hard to predict when it will come and how soon it will be alleviated.
[snapback]57271[/snapback]


Ha ! I'm sorry, this is not funny... but it's SO relieving to read this you have no idea... I'm in the same case, except I'm not completely out of it as of today. I still need assistance, both chemical and psychologic... My stupid serotonin acts like a spoiled child and refuses to cooperate...
And since the beginning I'm afraid I'll NEVER get rid of it completely. I've come to think that once you've seen things the way you see them during depression, you will never be the same person, even if you manage to completely get out of it...
So... I just wanted to tell you that we're together in the same boat, scared by something that might even NEVER happen... but scared nonetheless...
Celia
Mels and Coimhexx,
Iīm really sorry to hear what you are going through. And while Iīve never actually been under a deep depression Iīve gone through really hard times and also have needed medical help , so I think I know what you are talking about.
I think , as you put it Mels, you are never the same after having experienced hell, but I also think thatīs part of maturity, we will never get back the purity of our early years, the times when although we were also scared things hadnīt got that worse yet.
We have to get to live with that ,and take advantage of the wisdom those bad experiences have given us. Itīs a high price to pay but itīs life and I think itīs worthy.
I think most of our adult pshycologycal problems come from our chilhood. Marilynīs chilhood was awful and unfortunatly she was never ready or lucky enough to find a lucky love story. I think that īs a great help. For me it has been the key to happiness, but I worked hard to get ready for it.
I think poor Marilyn had it much more difficult, but I also think she gave priority to her professional life , to her personal success. Itīs just a choice.
I think you get in life what you really fight for and long for. She got almost everything. She was an achiever. So I wonder wether she really fought for a wonderful love. I donīt think so. Or at least , I donīt think she knew how to achieve that.
breathein
ok i'm not sure if anyone put this yet (i didn't get to read them all) but i read she wanted children very badly. but had three miscarriages. Another factor could have been while shooting the Misfits, costar Clark GAble grew tired of waiting for Marilyn and waiting in the hot sun, so he did his own stunts (some of them very very dangerous for someone his age) He was quoted as syaing something like this "Good god, the worman near gave me a heart attack" (about Marilyn being late and him waiting in the sun) The next day he died of a heart attack. Maybe she felt guilty about that too. I personally am torn between suicide and murder.
Val
QUOTE(Celia @ Jul 12 2004, 12:46 AM)
I think you get in life what you really fight for and long for. She got almost everything. She was an achiever. So I wonder wether she really fought for a wonderful love. I donīt think so. Or at least , I donīt think she knew how to achieve  that.
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I completly agree with this concept Celia. She was an achiever indeed. She just didn't have the Know How as far as her private life was concerned and that really ruined her life.
mels
QUOTE(Val @ Jul 13 2004, 12:46 PM)
QUOTE(Celia @ Jul 12 2004, 12:46 AM)
I think you get in life what you really fight for and long for. She got almost everything. She was an achiever. So I wonder wether she really fought for a wonderful love. I donīt think so. Or at least , I donīt think she knew how to achieve  that.
[snapback]57290[/snapback]


I completly agree with this concept Celia. She was an achiever indeed. She just didn't have the Know How as far as her private life was concerned and that really ruined her life.
[snapback]57452[/snapback]




That is exactly what I think as well... She looked like she really had an incapacity to make relationships work, whether we're talking about romantic ones or friendships...
I think that she lacked of this model during her childhood. People who really loved her for who she was, or even people in respectfull and successfull relationships around her who might have had given her an idea of what inconditional love was...
Celia
Yes Mels , you are right. I also think she didnīt have a model of what inconditional love is from her childhood. However I wouldnīt blame her chilhood completely for it. I think people without
a family though with more difficulty than others, also have the chance to find and learn what unconditional love is. I wonder if Marilyn gave herself to love as much as she did to her career, and to be honest, I doubt it.
I think if she had chosen to concentrate in achieving a good love relationship instead of all that fame, today we wouldnīt have a Marilyn Monroe . She would have probably had good relationships but not that huge success ( or a smaller success). I am not saying that both things couldnīt co-exist, but I think it is much more difficult, specially speaking of such a great success.
Besides, acting is a difficult career. It is more difficult for showbusiness people to keep good love
relationships than for other careers. Think of the actors with long lasting relationships, there are so few!
Meikkuli
QUOTE(mels @ Jul 11 2004, 07:06 PM)
QUOTE(minx_dublin @ Jul 11 2004, 07:44 PM)
I suffered severe depression untill a couple of years ago and the one element that scares me is the cyclical nature of depression.  The fact that it comes and goes but that its very hard to predict when it will come and how soon it will be alleviated.
[snapback]57271[/snapback]


Ha ! I'm sorry, this is not funny... but it's SO relieving to read this you have no idea... I'm in the same case, except I'm not completely out of it as of today. I still need assistance, both chemical and psychologic... My stupid serotonin acts like a spoiled child and refuses to cooperate...
And since the beginning I'm afraid I'll NEVER get rid of it completely. I've come to think that once you've seen things the way you see them during depression, you will never be the same person, even if you manage to completely get out of it...
So... I just wanted to tell you that we're together in the same boat, scared by something that might even NEVER happen... but scared nonetheless...
[snapback]57274[/snapback]



I know how you guys feel. We are not alone....as for me; 16 years and counting of coming and going depression and anxiety attacks.
Based on my own experiences too it is really hard to even begin to guess how Marilyn felt 40 odd years ago. I barely know how I myself feel:D So many people misunderstand psychological conditions, even today, and I have had poor diagnosis on my own condition from people who call themselves professionals. And psychiatry 40 years ago was ... whatever it was...also MMīs friends disagree on these things, so I donīt think we (people who never even met her) can ever understand just what happened that fatal night. There is nothing wrong with speculation and discussion though:)
mels
QUOTE(Celia @ Jul 13 2004, 08:03 PM)
I think if she had chosen to concentrate in achieving a good love relationship instead of all that fame, today we wouldnīt have a Marilyn Monroe . She would have probably had good relationships but not that huge success ( or a smaller success). I am not saying that both things couldnīt co-exist, but I think it is much more difficult, specially speaking of such a great success.
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Well, that's what I think as well, and I'd even add that this goes along with the idea of who Marilyn was I have in mind. Making relationships works asks at least a little bit of selfconfidence and trust on your other half's feelings. I think Marilyn was SO insecure when it came to who she really was that she couldn't or wouldn't try to make things work because she thought she wasn't worth it.
Her career, at the opposite was a focus on the one thing she really trusted in her : her body. I know it's a bit too caricatural but I think the scheme is more or less correct, I wouldn't be surprised if the reasons behind Marilyn's lack of longterm relationships came from here. Childhood is, indeed an important factor, but then self confidence and loving yourself at least a little bit is something that is important as well. IMO of course smile1.gif


QUOTE(Meikkuli @ Jul 13 2004, 10:26 PM)
I donīt think we (people who never even met her) can ever understand just what happened that fatal night. There is nothing wrong with speculation and discussion though:)
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Wow... You know... While some people don't want to talk about it, that's something I never hide because people still don't know what depression is.
A lot of people still think it's a psychological condition and that with a bit of will and fight you can get over it.
It is SO hard to make them understand that there is a chemical imbalance in the brain, or even to explain how your brain works and makes you think when you are depressed... People are not familiar with common symptoms of depression, and even when I was deep into it it's not until after my psychiatrist explained to me the mechanism of my brain that I started to understand a bit what I was going through.

We say that depression is the illness of the century, and now that many people are familiar with it, that people start to understand it is, before anything else, a REAL medical problem and not just something you have put into your mind, 90% still have no real clue what depression is about.

I can only begin to imagine what it was like 40 years ago... Must have been hard. And they didn't have the wonderful medication we now have... I don't know how things went for you but what I'm taking doesn't make me sleep, doesn't make me stop to think or anything. It's no miracle-you-forget-what-you're-going through pill, it's just producing synthetical serotonine so I can get up the morning and go through my day...
Not even 10 years ago, it was all just Prozac and such...

Marilyn was probably knocked out by whatever they made her take. I'd like to make some research and see how depression was diagnosed by then, and how they explained it... I mean, was it already known that there was this chemical problem in the brain?
If they had known that would they have put her in a psychiatric hospital like they did?....
Meikkuli
QUOTE(mels @ Jul 13 2004, 10:26 PM)
Wow... You know... While some people don't want to talk about it, that's something I never hide because people still don't know what depression is.


Me neither. I mean I used to, but in 16 years it has become part of me. I have to accept it, it has changed my whole personality somewhat - so if I have to deal with it people can take me the way I am or no way at all because I cannot change it no matter how much I would like to.

QUOTE
A lot of people still think it's a psychological condition and that with a bit of will and fight you can get over it.


Oh man, how many times have I heard this! Just get a grib, stop taking the pills, whatīs wrong with you, why donīt you just change your attitude? Makes me mad.

QUOTE
It is SO hard to make them understand that there is a chemical imbalance in the brain, or even to explain how your brain works and makes you think when you are depressed... People are not familiar with common symptoms of depression, and even when I was deep into it it's not until after my psychiatrist explained to me the mechanism of my brain that I started to understand a bit what I was going through.


Exactly. If you have not experienced depression you cannot understand it. As for me, I suffered a year before I seeked help. Back then I had more anxiety attack-type of things, and when I couldnīt get over those I started to suffer from depression too. Now it is more of a depression that comes and goes. However, had I not seeked help at the time I think I would have done myself in. I couldnīt cope anymore. I got some shitty advise, I met some stupid Freudian doctors who told me it was all because I didnīt enjoy my sex-life...and btw. In MMīs time Freudianism was the thing...I wonder how good it was for her!

QUOTE
We say that depression is the illness of the century, and now that many people are familiar with it, that people start to understand it is, before anything else, a REAL medical problem and not just something you have put into your mind, 90% still have no real clue what depression is about.

I can only begin to imagine what it was like 40 years ago... Must have been hard. And they didn't have the wonderful medication we now have... I don't know how things went for you but what I'm taking doesn't make me sleep, doesn't make me stop to think or anything. It's no miracle-you-forget-what-you're-going through pill, it's just producing synthetical serotonine so I can get  up the morning and go through my day...
Not even 10 years ago, it was all just Prozac and such...


Yes, it is not some "happy pills" you take to make yourself happy. That talk is BS too. I guess if a "normal" person took it it might affect them that way, but when someone with not enough serotonine takes the medication it helps them cope, it does not make them (us) "high and happy". Like MM, I too am generally miserable (that is what she said once in an interview). but with medication I am coping. I still donīt achieve as much as I would like to and what I planned when I was younger.

QUOTE
Marilyn was probably knocked out by whatever they made her take. I'd like to make some research and see how depression was diagnosed by then, and how they explained it... I mean, was it already known that there was this chemical problem in the brain?


Actually, I think these discoveries of the lack of serotonil in your brain is fairly new - I am not positive though. You are right, it would be very interesting to look into it. Also, when I had my anxiety attacks (every night when it came dark like clockwork and lasted till the morning. I was afraid to sleep before I saw the sun!) I was thinking of Marilyn and whether she had something similar to those too. That was not a "legitimate" disease until very very recently. Actually they started talking about it out loud around the time I started suffering from them, in the early 90īs. I bet you anything with better medical care MM would have coped better - she probably was drinking too because she found no real relief in medication - that was not right for her condition...Interesting stuff...


Oh man, if someone can fix these quotes I would be grateful. I have no idea what I did wrong blushing.gif

Mels Note : quote fixing done smile1.gif
BlondeNPrettyMe
Marylin did not commit suicide, I know for a fact because I was a nurse to took care of a cinematographer who filmed almost all of Marylins movies 20 years ago who knew per personally. According to him: "Marylin was a very intelligent, all business and a super smart woman. The weak and needy blonde she presented was all an act. She didnt kill herself, she was too smart, too much a perfectionist and too driven to do that. She was killed though for some reason, thats for sure."
Meikkuli
That is interesting. However, that is just this one personīs opinion, not a fact. Being intelligent does not negate being depressed. I hope, since I suffer from depression blink.gif It actually sounds like an intelligent person would not commit suicide...whaaat? Actually many people who suffer from depression and anxiety attacks and such are more sensitive and intelligent than an average person.
Also, even if he did know her personally does not make this any more a "fact". If we take a look at Marilynīs close friends we can divide their opinions to people who claim that she did commit suicide (Norman Rosten) and to those who said it was accidental (Evelyn Moriarty) and to those who say it was murder (George Barris). All these people knew her personally, yet their opinions differ. I am not saying it was suicide or it was murder or it was an accident, I donīt know. But in my opinion you cannot say it was a fact because someone who knew her told you so. It depends who you know and still nothing that is just an opinion is not a fact until you have some concrete evidence.
Stacy
I tend to go back and forth in my mind about Marilyn's death, was it accidential or intentional? If you add up all the bad things in her life and weigh them against all of the good things you might get an indication one way or another. But you can't measure the capacity of the human heart and what will be that one last thing that pushes it over the edge. At this time in her life, especially, Marilyn was not the most sane person. I lay the heaviest blame at the feet of Dr. Greenson, Dr. Engleberg and Mrs. Murray. They conspired to control her and her relationships. Marilyn was finally ready to break free of their control when her untimely death occured. Did they cause it by trying to keep her under their influence...or did Marilyn simply not have the strength to resist anymore. As has been pointed out before, depression skews ones views of the world and the bad things seem unbearable and the good things seem so out of reach. And with these three trolls riding her coat tails...the burden might have been too much for her to bear.
As Norman Mailer said, "She came to us in all her mother's doubt, and leaves us in mystery."

I, personally, tend to root for the inner strength that was in Marilyn. I feel that she was, in her very core, a survivor. Because she was making definite plans for her future I think that she did not willingly take her own life. Was she shattered by things that had happened recently in her professional and personal life? Of course she was. But
that was her gift, that was the soil she was raised in...to triumph from such defeat and rise victorious out of the muck. That is her legacy to us all. I have to believe that once more she would have transcended her
past to emerge more glorious than before.
sabine
First of all:let's look at the facts. 25 nembutals and at least 8 chloral hydrate in marilyn's system the time of her death. How did it get there?
Well, there was no injection....and the enema theory is about rediculous and has next to no evidence....Marilyn took them herself.
Accidentally? You don't take 33 pills accidentally. Maybe she misjudged? Again, you don't take 33 pills and hope to live.
Marilyn was in trouble and looking at her pictures months before her death (and her actions), one can see that.
Some say that she had everything to live for, re-hired by the studio (for a movie that was god awful and she knew it)...and then what?
She must have felt that her only securityand power, that as a sexy moviestar, was slipping away...the only thing that gathered her attention and love was going to be over....with it the adoration of the masses.....nothing but loneliness ahead.
Maybe somebody else like Kathreen Hepburn or Greta Garbo were stronger and didn't care and went on about their Lives.....but Marilyn had no family...no husband and children even......couldn't do anything else besides be a moviestar....she still wasn't receiving the respect she wanted and now they were all talking about "poor Marilyn"...her mental state of mind, her firing, her drugabuse, her failed marriages.
Maybe Marilyn just felt like a failure and didn't have the mental strength to pull out of that....
Just an opinion...of course

sabine
Joan Newman
How interesting you guys. I am glad you are all so honest and sharing of your experiences with Depression. I have often thought of what poor Marilyn must have been going thru with all her troubles. I know what its like to be in that dark place where you just want to stop the pain, sadness, the struggle and just rest, sleep. Just the stuff from her childhood was bad enough. Add to that the bad relationships, the nasty Hollywood people, her health problems, stress from her career. Add to that boose and prescribed drugs, the miscarriages. She was super strong.

I think she had too many bad people around her, the pocessive and controlling Greenson, Murray, his spy, Paula and Lee, again trying to control her, Lawford and his drinking and drugs buddies, Jack Kennedy. She didn't have a chance. Everyone who knew her well always commented about how deeply sad she was. She needed more real friends. I also suffer from Depression and take meds and have had little peace in my life. It goes up and it goes down. But there is a deep unhappiness, always, like they said about Marilyn.

It's hard to know what really happened. I believe she did attempt suicide before. I believe the Kennedys might have wanted her quiet. I do believe Greenson was the worse thing that happened to her. He didn't want her better and free of him. He would not let her out of his grip.

Good nite.
ariella
I want to say thank you to those members who have shared their diagnosis, In a world fulll of stigma, stereotypes and misinformation it's a brave act. And an enlightening one for so many people who don't know much about a brain disorder. There's so much misinformation and suppositon involved whern the general public talks about mental illness. Even the media. There is the notion that a mentally illl person is incapable of functioning and achieving a normal life. That a mental illness prevents a person from going to school, holding a job, having realtionships and being successful. While a mental illness can be debilitating at times, most folks diagniosed with a mental illlness, even a severe one, are contributing members of society. They aren't about to collapse into a fragile weeping mass of tears. They aren't just one heart beat away from conversing with themselves or terrorizing the neighborhood. They are normal, functioning members of society, contributing members. Some in prestigious positons.Abraham Lincoln comes to mind. So incapacitated by depression at times he could not leave his room-yet he led a nation in it's darkest hours. I don't think many people know he was unable to work as a lawyer for approximately a year as his depression was so severe. He spent that time rooming above his friends dry goods store, occassionaly helping out. before getring back on hos feeeet and returning to the work of a lawyer and circuit lawyer. I think anyone who deals with depression is courageous. Especially if they have the guts to talk about it and educate people by telling their story. It takes the boogeyman out of peoples perception as to what it is. Ted Turner is a manic depressive. So was Winstaon Churchill, who called his illness "'My dark demon dogs of despair."yet, he credited the same illness with helping him lead England through the war. The list of notable historical figures with some type of brain disorder is almost endless. marilyn's name can be added to the list, obviously. But, what makes her situation (and others as well) sad is she did not have the ability to cope in a healthy way with her illness and the way it alters ones perception of the world. It wasn't unusual for her to react to a negative life event, even a small one, by swallowing enough pillls to overdose. I know we are focused on a big dark depression being the root cause of her apparent suicide, but what if it were an act of self abuse and retalliation aimed at some seeemingly insignifcant event, some small upset?an act against the world around her? I'm not sure I know how to explain it properly...I think, as with her attempts in the past, some seemingly inconsequential event made her angry and her way of coping was to react with a self destructive rage. she chose to get back at the world, her world, by overdosing. It's a "Ill show them" response. It's a way of coping (although badly) with intense, uncomfortable feelings. There are a million different types of depression, and I think she had a depressed nature, am eloncholllly nature. even when she was happy. It's a subdoagnosis of manic depression. a person can be so angry they don't think about actually dying in the perment sense of the world-it doesn't occur to them they might not actually wake up. They are so mad, so intent on getting back at whoever or whatever upset them they simply gain satisfaction from grabbing and swallowing the pills rather than even thinking about the reality of the end result. From marilyn's documented actions to past events it wouldn't be odd for her to decide to overdose. Not because she wanted to die, but because she wanted to make someone pay on an emotional level. it was some minor event (or seemingly minor to us) which triggered her self destructive response to dissapointment.
Everyones posts are really well thought out and it gives me a lot to think about-rather than just one angle as to why she may have committed suicide.
Elka
ariella
QUOTE(BlondeNPrettyMe @ Aug 9 2004, 11:19 AM)
Marylin did not commit suicide, I know for a fact because I was a nurse to took care of a cinematographer who filmed almost all of Marylins movies 20 years ago who knew per personally. According to him: "Marylin was a very intelligent, all business and a super smart woman. The weak and needy blonde she presented was all an act. She didnt kill herself, she was too smart, too much a perfectionist and too driven to do that. She was killed though for some reason, thats for sure."
[snapback]59547[/snapback]



Ted Turner, Abe Licoln, Winston Churchill, Van Gogh, Sylvia Plath, Rod Steiger, FDR,just a few people from a long list who battled some form of depression. traiblazers who were exceptionaly bright. suicide has absolutley nothing to do with ones intellegence level, icome, religious beliefs or level of success. It cuts across every level of society. Every gender, every economic level and age group. Not only do I consider myself intellegent . Depression is not a character flaw or the result of being somehow "deficient."
It's a issue much deeper than the superficiality of how our lives appear to be on the outside. By the way, perfectionism is a common link in a lot of folks who are depressed. Just as it is a myth people leave suicide notes (many don't) it is a myth that suicide victims are only helpless, emotionally frail "nuts."
Tara
You're right Elka - depression is not a sign of weakness. In Marilyn's case I think it had a lot to do with being very sensitive, which shows that she was intelligent. But it also made her vulnerable.

I suppose the worst aspect of suicide is the hurt caused to the loved ones left behind. But then at times Marilyn felt very alone.

My own feeling is that it was an accident or a cry for help, rather than a deliberate taking of her own life. But it's impossible to know for sure.
rachelmarie
I always thought Marilyn was murdered, mainly from books I have read, but when some author wants to sell a book, they do develop this ability to sensationalise. In honesty, there would not be as many Marilyn books around today, there would not be as much demand for them, there would not be as many documentaries if she was a DEFINITE suicide. A lot of Marilyn's mystique was the controversy surrounding her death, take away once and for all a murder conspiracy and replace it with suicide and it's not half as interesting.
I'm not saying Marilyn wouldn't still be popular nowadays without the murder conspiracy surrounding her, of course she would, that's why we all come to this forum and have books, dvds, photos of her. She was a beautiful, sensitive, intelligent woman with a magic for the camera. In our own ways we all feel like we relate to her. My birthday is three days after Marilyn's so we are both Geminis, we are exactly the same height, she was too sensitive, as i am...we all feel we have something in common with her, like we actually knew her. Sadly, she died ten years before I was born.
I just don't know what to think, and I wish I did know. There were a lot of strange things around her death, her house was definitely bugged, she was certainly having emotional problems, she had been fired, some say re hired but to do a film she had little faith in.There was definitely an ending to the relationship with Bobby Kennedy - some say he ended it, others say she did, either way it was gonna hurt. She certainly felt very alone. the photos shortly before her death show a still beautiful but extremely thin woman who appeared drugged up and quite often had a glass of dom perignon in her hands. The housekeeper was cleaning bedding at a silly time of the morning, the glass of the window was broken inside ( or so we are told ) She was supposedly going to call a press conference about the Kennedys, photos of the death scene were obviously changed ( water glass etc ) her red diary apparently disappeared, I won't even go into the autopsy report which to me spanks of a cover up, but my medical knowledge is limited. It goes on and on!
Does all this mean she was suicidal? Does it mean she was murdered? I honestly don't know. They could exhume her body and even after 43 years could probably find something to explain her death, the way medicine has advanced, but I don't think they should exhume her. Marily was a tortured soul and deserves to be left in peace now.
I too suffer from depression, I don't need to take medication anymore but it's still there lurking like a black cloud. I know what it is like to feel you cannot carry on and you convince yourself that everyone would be better off without you, you just want the pain to stop...but I never tried suicide, I couldn't because of the people I'd leave behind. Marilyn was very caring, but she did not have a lot of good people in her life and it would have been easier for her to slip away guilt free.
The only conclusion that I have come to, after many years, is that we will probably never know how Marilyn died. Most people who could tell us the truth are either dead themselves or won't talk, or maybe there is just nothing to say. I remain open minded and try to celebrate Marilyn's life every time I watch one of her films. She was special.
sabine
Marilyn's prospects for the future were actually bleak....she was in the grips of a serious drug problem that left her unable to work (she only appeared on the set of 'something's got to give' a few days worth)....she was alone...the only people in her life were people she paid to be there.
You can see the downslide in Marilyn's Life quite clearly starting in 1961....her divorce from miller, a serious detox session in February, move back to L.A. where she choose to hang with a hard crowd,another detox in late '61.
1962 wasn't much better. With her career in jeopardy marilyn tried way to hard to get attention....she attended the 'golden globes' in a dress that was obsenely tight and she was intoxicated in public.....she was doing 'nudes' on the set of her last movie....she appeared at the Kennedy gala in a seemingly see-thru dress, again intoxicated....she was on a downward spiral.
Then she was fired. Shortly after that she almost overdosed and her doctor had to be called back from a trip to help her. She almost overdosed again in late July.
These are the facts and it wasn't pretty.
I am afraid that marilyn was her own worst enemie and there wasn't much anybody could so. They tried for years.

sabine
sabine
ELKA....could you please e-mail me about a matter i'd like to discuss with you

sabine

zmart4ever@yahoo.com


Anybody else honestly interested in the suicide theory please e-mail me and i will tell you guys what this is about.
(No, you don't have to BUY anything and it's not wacky).....
sabine
Rachelmarie....you hit the nail right on the head when you said that a simple suicide is not half as interesting as some wild murder theory. And there you have it in a nutshell. And this stuff still sells books and pays people's bills....in the meantime wrecking people's reputations and character, all in the name of 'the truth'.
The suicide theory has the most evidence compared to other theories....here they are:

a, death by injection - no injection site was ever found. An injection would have left a nasty bruise with a pinpoint injection site and it would have been found easily. Marilyn also had 2 different drugs at lethal levels in her blood. Either one would have been enough to kill on it's own.
There is also no motive for murder. (And the 'pressconference' stuff came from Slatzer, a notorious Liar).

b, Death by enema...either accidental or on purpose - the famous discoloration of the colon was not at the entry way to the colon where an enema would have been placed. The discoloration was also on the OUTSIDE of the colon wall, not on the inside tissue. furthermore, there is absolutely no other proof for the case of a killer enema and if you ask me, the theory is quite preposterous and rediclulous.
When was the last time you heard of a person murdered via enema?

c, death by oral ingestion - ok, first off: Marilyn bought the drugs that killed her the day before her death. That's a clear sign of premeditation.
Her stomachlining was hemorraging, a clear sign that something dramatic had passed thu....the 'empty stomach' only points to the fact that marilyn was a heavy abuser...her stomach basically 'dumped' the drugs into the intestines.
By the way, it takes less than a minute to swallow the pills that marilyn took with minimal amount of water and it takes under 10 minutes for the stomach to disolve all the pills (and that's in a person without drughistory, you can imagine marilyn's tolerance). She also took no food with these pills, speeding the absorption even more. Within an hour or so all traces of the pills would have been gone from the stomach. It is also highly likely that marilyn lived for a few more hours after ingesting these pills in a comatose state before actual death....
Let's concider this together with her personnal problems.
I feel she ment to do it because she locked her bedroom door and she also knew that this time there was nobody to save her.

d, death by accident - ok, the amount of drugs was too large for it to have been an 'accident'. Had she taken the pills over an amount of time, a few pills at a time, she would have passed out long before she could finish them all.
Accidental overdose in this case is highly unlikely.


sabine PS: Please e-mail me at zmart4ever@yahoo.com
ellen
marilynbybrandon_190.gif
Joan Newman
It is so aggrevating . angry.gif frusty.gif

The biographies I read drive me crazy. If only there was one single person who actually KNEW the real story, the real truth. One says she prostituted herself in her early years, even slept with a young Milton Greene, whom I thought was one of her truest friends to the end who never tried to use her.

Another book says she was buried on the day she was going to become Mrs. Joe DiMaggio again. Yet I've read that even she said in 62 that she loved Joe but she did not want to be married to him again.

One book says she was fired from Something's Got to Give, she was devastated, very unhappy with all her life, doing all kinds of drugs and God knows what else up at Cal-neva. Yet another biography says she was doing great towards the end, lots of career possibilities, rehired at over double her salary for Something's Got to Give, feeling and looking her very best ever, deciding to dispose of Greenson and Murray and that it was impossible for her to want to commit suicide.

Then there's the whole Kennedy thing. Most say they were'nt any affairs. I can see why they would try to deny this. And that Bobby was nothing short of a "saint' where his marriage to Ethel was concerned. I could have sworn I'd seen people on TV interviews stating that they "knew" for a fact that Bobby was involved, and there was a big cover up the night she was indeed "killed". Lawford's ex-wife, I think, was one of those people, and next door neighbors of Marilyn's. Obviously, if Bobby Kennedy were to be in her house the day she died, he must not have been there just to visit and to tell her how happy he was that she was doing so well in her life and career. And following his visit she is dead.

This is all so confusing. I know you cannot believe anything you read really. There have been so many cover ups about so many things. Who killed President Kennedy? So, how could we know for sure? Peter Lawford would have been the one to tell the real story but he chose to take it to his grave.

One thing does bother me now? Most people agree on the fact that Greenson and Mrs. Murray were not really good for Marilyn. That she realized this towards the end. I read that Greenson even tried to keep Joe away from her at one point. Surely, Marilyn would have told Joe if she was disappointed in Greenson. Why didn't Joe put some blame of Greenson and kept him away from the funeral?

I was hoping there was a biography with none of the sensationalism, no biases, you know. Is there one that is better than most? I 've been reading Spotos biography. And I must say, I hate it. Just fraustrated. Thanks.
Tara
Nettie, I know how you feel. The more I read, the more I realise that we'll probably never know the truth. Some biographies are better than others, but they each have their own agenda. They all portray Marilyn in a certain way, but nobody can really know what how she truly felt.

Re Milton Greene, they did have a fling in 1949 - which was before Milton married, I think. Some writers say they resumed the affair in 1955, but I have never been convinced of that. And Amy denies it completely - she said Marilyn was a good friend and would never have done that.

I really resent it when writers say she prostituted herself. Why shouldn't a young woman take lovers? If Marilyn had been a man, they would be praising her sexual prowess.

I don't think she was planning to remarry Joe in '62. Maybe Joe hoped for it but Marilyn knew it would never work. Joe was a good friend, but they just didn't get on as a married couple.

I believe that she probably had a short-lived affair with Jack Kennedy, but I'm not so sure about Bobby. Jack cut her off after the birthday gala, because rumours were starting to fly around. I think she became friendly with Bobby at this point, and she may have hoped he would help her with her troubles at Fox. He had connections there, and after all her appearance at the gala was one of the reasons why she got fired.

There is no doubt that Marilyn had serious problems, with drug addiction and depression. She was very vulnerable, and needed a lot of care. For all his faults, I do believe that Dr Greenson (and Mrs Murray) weren't bad people. They were trying to help, however misguided their efforts may have been. It is just too easy for writers like Spoto to make accusations.

I think that in '62, Marilyn was making a serious effort to tackle her drug addiction. But for some reason, she lost the battle. Perhaps it was an accident, or maybe not. But there had many overdoses, so in a way it was inevitable.

One issue that isn't really addressed is how Marilyn got hold of all these drugs. Dr Engleberg, her physician, was preoccupied with personal problems that weekend. It's possible that there was a mix-up with the prescriptions. That point has never been cleared up.

Getting back to your point about the books, I wholeheartedly recommend David Marshall's book, The DD Group: An Online Investigation Into The Death Of Marilyn Monroe. He is a fan, and writes with great sympathy and respect for Marilyn. Also, he assesses the many conflicting accounts in a very comprehensible way, without trying to push his own views.

Another fan, Michelle Morgan, is currently writing a fullscale biography. She previously wrote the book Marilyn's Addresses, and runs a fanclub. I think the book will really be a labour of love, not just a moneyspinning venture.

I think we have to accept that Marilyn was only human, with good points and bad ones too. That doesn't mean we have to love her any less. She brought great happiness to so many people. She was a good person, even though she had her problems.

Do persevere with the Spoto book, it's worthwhile although his tone is sometimes annoying. You don't have to agree with all of his conclusions, but it will add a lot to your knowledge of Marilyn.

All the best,
love Tara xx
Joan Newman
Thank you Tara for your quick reply. Your thoughts are very much appreciated.
Where did you read about Milton's affair with her in 1949? As far as the prostituting, they made it sound like it was sex in exchange for a roof over her head and basic necessities, like food.

The Spoto book makes Greenson out as a maniac, almost in lust with Marilyn, crossing all professional and ethical lines to keep her in his life under his power. He made her sound like she was an idiot and couldn't do anything on her own without a man to govern her.

I agree that she was fighting a lost battle with all her demons and that sooner or later she would loose. It is bad enough to have so many issues from her past, on top of it to have a drug addiction of any kind. Mix depression with alcohol or pills, very touchy and deadly. I read that she had pills coming to her from all over the place. And that one doctor didn't know what the others had given her. How sad. But she knew.

Thank you for the book recommendations; David Marshall's, and the DD Group too. I will look into them. I look forward to Michelle Morgan's biography. I will try and check out her fan club. And you are right. I have learned a lot from Spoto's book anyway, even if just about specific events and their dates, etc. I just hate when they trash her so, you know. I love her no matter what I read, whether it's true or not. Nothing she did could change that.

Thank you Tara dear. bye1.gif
Tara
Hi Nettie

I read about Milton and Marilyn's 1949 affair in Spoto's book. She was involved with Johnny Hyde at the time, it was just a brief fling. I sort of see it as a nice interlude. It must have been heavy-going, spending all her time with a much older man who was very ill.

Spoto talks about her working Hollywood Boulevard in 1947, when she was unemployed. He got this story from the Carrolls, but I'm not sure if it's true. Marilyn tended to exaggerate sometimes, if she thought it would make people more sympathetic.

She later talked to Lee Strasberg about being a call-girl in the early years, but like you say Nettie, I think it would only have happened because of dire neccessity. She wasn't prostituting herself in her relations with men like Johnny Hyde and Joe Schenck, because she genuinely liked those men. I think she sometimes saw sex as a way of thanking someone who had done her a good turn.

I just can't imagine Marilyn being so totally controlled by Dr Greenson as Spoto makes out. I know she was needy and tended to idealise people sometimes, but still it doesn't wash for me. She had a strong personality and no man could control her, though plenty tried!

Tara


misfitspaddle_153.gif
Joan Newman
Thanks Tara. I won't regard Spotos's book as truth though. I will look forward to Michelle Morgan's biography then.
rose
QUOTE(sabine @ Oct 26 2004, 12:43 AM) [snapback]64714[/snapback]
Accidentally? You don't take 33 pills accidentally. Maybe she misjudged? Again, you don't take 33 pills and hope to live.
sabine


Hm.It is possible that Marilyn did indeed take that many tablets accidentally,without meaning to kill herself.I mean,she was used to use/take tablets over the years more and more but back then she had been heavier.She took tablets with alcohol.But at the age of 36 she lost a lot of weight.She maybe was feeling that tablets wasn't helping (during the day she died)and took them more and later more and waited them to star work.But her tolerance wasn't same as before.Amount of tablets what before had worked now killed her.It's possible. *jmo*
meganmarilyn
QUOTE(rose @ Mar 6 2006, 12:54 PM) [snapback]99962[/snapback]
Hm.It is possible that Marilyn did indeed take that many tablets accidentally,without meaning to kill herself.I mean,she was used to use/take tablets over the years more and more but back then she had been heavier.She took tablets with alcohol.But at the age of 36 she lost a lot of weight.She maybe was feeling that tablets wasn't helping (during the day she died)and took them more and later more and waited them to star work.But her tolerance wasn't same as before.Amount of tablets what before had worked now killed her.It's possible. *jmo*


You can take 33 pills period. Accidentally or not. Elvis was more reliant on pills in the 1970's than Marilyn was. And his tolerance level was so bad, that he had to take more and more just to get any effect at all. No one knows exactly what happened that day. But to say suicide was the only way she could have died, that is just an opinion. Whether she died on purpose or by accident, she always loved life. Too bad pills and alcohol were always there for her, when people who could have made a more positive difference in her life were not.
sabine
Hey... balloon.gif

Well, personally it's hard for me to figure out how somebody takes 33 plus pills "by accident"....the amount of pills is way over the top to have been taken accidentally.
That's not my opinion...i feel that's just common sense.
Did she maybe forget she had taken pills and took more? Well, that sounds MORE of a possiblility but had this truly happened she would have surely passed out before she could have taken all the pills.....
I know i always ruffle feathers when i say this points toward 'intentional suicide' but if it quaks like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck...you get my drift.
Wether Marilyn 'loved life' or not is debatable....to me she seems as if she was in a lot of emotional pain and maybe also confusion not to mention the substance abuse.
Hey, either way...i really feel for her...i am sure you guys know what i mean no.gif


sabine
meganmarilyn
QUOTE(sabine @ Mar 6 2006, 11:36 PM) [snapback]100000[/snapback]
Hey... balloon.gif

Well, personally it's hard for me to figure out how somebody takes 33 plus pills "by accident"....the amount of pills is way over the top to have been taken accidentally.
That's not my opinion...i feel that's just common sense.
Did she maybe forget she had taken pills and took more? Well, that sounds MORE of a possiblility but had this truly happened she would have surely passed out before she could have taken all the pills.....
I know i always ruffle feathers when i say this points toward 'intentional suicide' but if it quaks like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck...you get my drift.
Wether Marilyn 'loved life' or not is debatable....to me she seems as if she was in a lot of emotional pain and maybe also confusion not to mention the substance abuse.
Hey, either way...i really feel for her...i am sure you guys know what i mean no.gif
sabine



This isn't a death that walks like a duck. There is too much controversy, and too many unknowns, too say just because she took 33 pills, well yet she intended too kill herself. You can't look at Marilyn's life and say it so clear cut black and white. Like I said, you weren't there to witness her death. No one was that is stilll alive. Once again, did Elvis, who took more pills than Marilyn ever did, did he take his pills because he wanted to commit suicide? Or did he take them because he couldn't sleep and his life wasn't sane? Same with Marilyn. She was so far out of reality, to her taking 33 pills might have been sane to her.
rose
I agree with you,Megan and I tried to explain the same things what you explained in your posts.Taking lots of pills might have been normal thing for Marilyn.She was used to the idea that pills helped.Person can take a lot pills without meaning to commit suicide.That I tried to say in my first post.
*sigh*I'm thinking accidental suicide rather than "planned" suicide.Murder is not my first thought what might happened back then.
Cuddlebottoms
Marilyn Monroe. Norma Jean.

To me, I don't like to think about her death or how she actually did die.

I love embracing who she was. She was the best. And I love her dearly for that.

She struggled so much.

I have 'manic depression'. I don't believe in labeling people thier symptoms. It's good to see that I am not alone. And that Marilyn wasn't either in the mental aspect.

I just think we all should just realize she isn't here anymore, and we can't neccessarily diagnose her death anymore. Yet I know everyone is curious on what actually happened. But w/e happened to her, shouldn't have. Suicide, Accidental suicide or even murder.....is just not a good thing to think about.

I am sure plenty of you think it's murder and don't want to face the fact that there is a possibility that it was suicide or accidental. All three of those choices are such a horrible way to die. If it was a natural cause, would Marilyn be as big as she is now?

In my opinion, I think her controversial death is only a partial amount of what made her a legend. She still would have been one if she didn't die in a controversial way, but knowing about a moviestar with a unknown death, just seems to attract people more.

I am curious on this one. How do we know it wasn't just a natural death? There were no medication, like overdosage in her after her death right? No signs of forced entry or anything awkward on her body right? (Sorry if im wrong but just go along with me here bye1.gif ) God may have just decided that it was her time to go. Or that she just died without a cause. Im not going to talk about what I believe in since Im sure alot of people here believe differently from me. But I am just stating my thoughts.
rose
throb.gif Your post is very touching, Cassandra Rose throb.gif
Cuddlebottoms
QUOTE(rose @ Mar 12 2006, 02:48 PM) [snapback]100473[/snapback]
throb.gif Your post is very touching, Cassandra Rose throb.gif


bye1.gif Thank you! <333

throb.gif jumpymm.gif
rose
throb.gif To Cassanda Rose throb.gif

marilynbybrandon_190.gif hug.gif mmmaf_116.gif niagarasing.gif runninwild.gif syimarilyn_161_733.gif
Cuddlebottoms
Aw. Hehehe. I feel VERY special! bye1.gif Thanks Rose! hug.gif *kisses* <33 Oh and my mommy's name is Rose. Thats where my middle name came from hehe.

Its good to know that someone thinks what I said was touching. throb.gif

I will always think of the positive aspects of Marilyn's life. There might have not been numerous positive events, but now, just thinking about her, adds a positive marking in my life. By being inspired by her. Other than my mommy being there and believing in me, I know Marilyn would too. Gosh-I wish she was still alive.

Thanks again Rose marilynbybrandon_190.gifmarilynbybrandon_190.gifmarilynbybrandon_190.gif
meganmarilyn
She didn't die.
Her body may have died, but her spirit is now on another wonderful and beautiful journey.
She came to us like a comet.
She touched our lives, made us look up while we laughed and cried along with her.
And just like a comet, she left us and we didn't get to say goodbye.
Only to cry.

Norma Jeane, we all throb.gif throb.gif you, and you know why...
Cuddlebottoms
QUOTE(meganmarilyn @ Mar 18 2006, 07:56 AM) [snapback]100880[/snapback]
She didn't die.
Her body may have died, but her spirit is now on another wonderful and beautiful journey.
She came to us like a comet.
She touched our lives, made us look up while we laughed and cried along with her.
And just like a comet, she left us and we didn't get to say goodbye.
Only to cry.

Norma Jeane, we all throb.gif throb.gif you, and you know why...


Well said. marilynbybrandon_190.gif

That was very very touching!

And I agree with you.
fuzzyeyebrows
QUOTE
- Loneliness
- The feeling of always being used


Indeed....and was fearful of inheriting her mother's disorder.


Marilyn wanted to be genuinely loved, (not superficial ie. just for her looks or body) as everybody wants and to be happy (she had a very child-like fragility and sensitivity about her) ... I think these were utmost in her mind. The depression set in when it didn't happen..and she compensated with alchohol and sleeping pills. It was a cry for help...and I don't believe it was a suicide or murder (as some conspiracy theorists devised), but rather an accidental overdose.

Her spirit lives on in all those who remember her.
cristy
Marilyn had a strong personality but at the end of her life she was emotionally drained & I think she was feeling alone I know the feeling myself but as much as you suffer suicide is never an option people in her situation need a shoulder to cry on & she missed that
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