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Everlasting Star Community > The experts' lounge > Marilyn's mysterious death > General discussion
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mels
Here we go...

Let's open the debate regarding Marilyn's death. Before entering into details in long theories, let's see what you all think!

I'm voting for "accidental". I still have to study carefully the corrolation between her autopsy and what we know about her medication, but I do think there was an uncompatibily between several of her treatments or that her body rejected the mix between to medications.
ilikeithot
Iīm going with accidental too, Mels. I believe it was accidental on her part though and someoneīs negligence helped her untimely death. unsure.gif

You can see a little topic about this here
Lorraine
Mmmmmm,i suppose i am not entirely sure,but it was strange how Marilyn was found in the postion she was found in on the bed stretched out with her hand on the phone,almost like she was placed that way.....but we will never know.God Bless her
MM_Yvonne
yeah...i agree with you all....i know this sound horrible, but in a way it`s sort of good that she died...cuz if she was still alive, i don`t think she would have had so many fans.....i mean look at liz taylor...don`t think she has fans like us...but any way...that`s just my opinion
Val
QUOTE(MM_Yvonne @ Jul 7 2004, 11:03 AM)
yeah...i agree with you all....i know this sound horrible, but in a way it`s sort of good that she died...cuz if she was still alive, i don`t think she would have had so many fans.....i mean look at liz taylor...don`t think she has fans like us...but any way...that`s just my opinion
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It does sound horrible. I'm pretty sure you didn't phrase this the way you wanted to. I mean who cares about the fans if they're dead
cry.gif It's a very high price to pay. Go ask Liz Taylor if she rather be alive or be dead but considered as a myth.
MM_Yvonne
i don`t mean it like that Val...but i don`t know how TO put it so that you`ll understand....I`m sorry
MM_Yvonne
oh man! now i feel like such a terreble person!
Val
QUOTE(MM_Yvonne @ Jul 7 2004, 04:50 PM)
oh man! now i feel like such a terreble person!
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Don't feel that terrible. I wrote above that I was sure you did not phrase that concept the way you wanted. I figured out you did not really mean it.
MM_Yvonne
yeah, exacly<----don`t know how you write that) did not mean it like the way it sounds.
Celia
I used to think she was murdered but Iīm not sure now,so Iīve voted accidental.
I just doubt that the Kennedys killed her.
I strongly believe there was a cover up, but I think that there was a reason for it: They had to allow time to remove all things liking Marilyn and the kennedys if itīs true that they were having a relationship.
angelxwingz
QUOTE(MM_Yvonne @ Jul 7 2004, 10:03 AM)
yeah...i agree with you all....i know this sound horrible, but in a way it`s sort of good that she died...cuz if she was still alive, i don`t think she would have had so many fans.....i mean look at liz taylor...don`t think she has fans like us...but any way...that`s just my opinion
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I know exactly what you mean. Would her legend have grown if she did not met such a sudden tragic, and untimely death? I think the reason alot of her fans became attracted to her was because of her death, in some sort of weird way. When people die they all of a sudden become legends, even though Marilyn was a living legend. I would have loved to see her live longer to see what she had in store for us, but in a way its better she died young so we will always remember her in her youth and as beautiful. Only the good die young.

As for me, I believe she was murdered. I did a paper on it in school that was 15 pages of pure fact surrounding her affairs with John and Bobby. I believe they were the ones responsible for it, but I wont go into it right now.
Celia
I agree with you. She wouldnīt have been sooooo famous.
However I think she would have been as famous as Greta Garbo , Clark Gable
or Charles Chaplin. And they are all great legends.
Elisabeth Taylor, whom someone mentioned above, is not that great for me.
I think she was never at Marilynīs level , maybe Iīm wrong, but I also heard that Taylor was a
bit angry because they called her a legend and not a myth like Marilyn. But I think thatīs exactly the difference.
Val
I don't know. The first time I saw Marilyn on the screen - and was immediately fascinated - I did not even know she was dead. So that can be true but it is not true for me.
Meikkuli
QUOTE(Val @ Jul 13 2004, 07:23 PM)
I don't know. The first time I saw Marilyn on the screen - and was immediately fascinated - I did not even know she was dead. So that can be true but it is not true for me.
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I totally agree. I think she had something - what they call flesh impact -that no one (at least to me) never had before nor after. (They said Garbo did, but I never liked her...) I donīt know any other actress who just glows, you know...and you cannot look at anyone else when she is on screen. Her image on screen was magical, mystical, bigger than life.
As for the topic...I also voted accidental. Of course, no one can know for sure. But at the moment it is the most plausible explanation to me. However, I do believe there was cover-up afterwards, otherwise all the discrepancies would be hard to explain. Whether she accidentally overdosed it or it was her doctorīs fault I havenīt made up my mind.
Val
QUOTE(Meikkuli @ Jul 13 2004, 09:51 PM)
QUOTE(Val @ Jul 13 2004, 07:23 PM)
I don't know. The first time I saw Marilyn on the screen - and was immediately fascinated - I did not even know she was dead. So that can be true but it is not true for me.
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I totally agree. I think she had something - what they call flesh impact -that no one (at least to me) never had before nor after. (They said Garbo did, but I never liked her...) I donīt know any other actress who just glows, you know...and you cannot look at anyone else when she is on screen. Her image on screen was magical, mystical, bigger than life.
As for the topic...I also voted accidental. Of course, no one can know for sure. But at the moment it is the most plausible explanation to me. However, I do believe there was cover-up afterwards, otherwise all the discrepancies would be hard to explain. Whether she accidentally overdosed it or it was her doctorīs fault I havenīt made up my mind.
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I beleive - admitting it was an accident - that it was both her responsibility (she was not stupid and was certainly aware that the large amount of psych drugs she was taking could do no good in the end) and her doctor's too who mishandled her completly.
Fav
I voted for accidental death. Though it is documented she tried to kill herself on numerous occasions - they were cries for help but no-one heard those cries on this occasion. Also, maybe I like to believe the best of people and not in 'the evil that men do' ie she wasn't murdered by someone though sometimes the truth can be stranger than fiction.
linkeando
i voted wrong medication because i believe in the Spotoīs theory
Stacy
I agree with Jeannette.
I think it was a wrong mixture of medication because he doctors didn't know what the other had given her.
I think it was accidental, and Spoto does a nice job of presenting that opinion.
I also belive that there was a clean-up by her doctors and Mrs. Murray of the
death scene and a cover-up by the Kennedy associates of any items that might
prove embarrassing to the Kennedys.
Celia
Hi Stacy!! Hope you are fine!
Do you really think that Mrs Murray actually applied the enema? As Spoto puts it?
I used to believe it but I changed my mind when someone told me that Spoto is someway related to the kennedys and that he was taken to court for what he said about other writers and lost the trial.
Honestly, I donīt know what to think. I wish the case were reopened so that we could finnally know the truth angry.gif
breathein
for now i think it's accidental, but you never know...
moglet
i think it was accidental, i think she felt depressed and took quite a lot of pills then she forgot how many she had and took some more, but only god knows ...
MarilynForever86
I believe that it was semi-accidental-overdose-meaning she obviously must have either thought the pills wouldnt kill her or kill her so fast and thought she would be saved. I believe that no one could save her in time-I'm saying this because she tried to "do away with herself" and someone was able to get her in time...
MarilynForever86
I wish she left a note, or an indication. What I do know is that we will never know..and perhaps thats for the best.
Tamara
I have put other because i am really not sure what i think, i think my opinion changes sometimes, i really do not know what to think.
Nina
I do believe she was murdered and voted so. It was for sure a cover up and it had to do with the Kennedys. For me there was never a real investigation of her death. Maybe she had a disapointment with RFK and it was really something dirty and he wanted to calm her down and he hit her and she fall down and was death because of a broken back of the neck. I just said this (it could be so or not like 1000 other things could have been - everything are "could have been theories") but what I want to say is that the causes of her death are never cleared, they have never been researched well... to tell the world she had commited suicide was the "easiest way" to find a story in 3 or 4 hours... the autopsy didn't proofed the pill theorie but couldn't gave another solution either (or they didn't wanted)...

And really, why did the FBI still make files when books (*l laugh.gif l*) have been published more than 20years after her death? Don't they have other (more important) things to do?

JMO
SugarKane69
niagarasing.gif maybe she accidently overdosed, not knowing how many pills she was taking, maybe in a state of panic, or sadness, she unknowingly took too many pills, thats just one theory.... that poor beautiful woman, her life so tragic, just right out of shakespere. i just adore her so much..... niagarasing.gif



"Creativity has got to start with humanity and when you're a human being, you feel, you suffer"-M.monroe.
mels
QUOTE(Nina @ Sep 15 2004, 09:59 PM)
the autopsy didn't proofed the pill theorie but couldn't gave another solution either (or they didn't wanted)...
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While I don't believe that she was murdered, I completly respect your opinion, but I have to disagree with this part of your post. The autopsy DID confirm that she died of an overdose. What the autopsy fails to demonstrate is how she overdosed, and that's where the whole controversy lies.
In a nutshell, what people question is the "probable suicide" conclusion made by what I call the "investigation squad" which includes the coroner and his office, as well as the suicide prevention team who investigated Marilyn's psychological condition at the moment of her death.

All acceptable theories have to include the fact that Marilyn ODed. From that there are tons of theories out there: injection, suicide, accident, enema, etc... (See my post here for discussion of some of them.

But it was never questionned that Marilyn died of something else than an overdose.
The amounts of Chloral Hydrate and Nembutal found in her liver were published in the autopsy report from the start, which mean the overdose is a fact.
Nina
k, well it's hard to tell what I mean - I will try again because I could have been try to discribe it a little better wink3.gif

The autopsy doesn't proofed the pill theorie because there were no pills in her stomach or little of it. So the autopsy couldn't give the answer, if she really died because of the fact of pills (as they say) or if it was taken/given in luiqid via a needle or enema. It's not proofed for sure (100%) that she had taken pills that was what I mean wink3.gif - that she died because of an overdose was or is clear for me too.

But what people say what happend is not always what really happend. Maybe everyone should just think it was the way it did.

sadballerina.gif
mels
QUOTE(Nina @ Sep 16 2004, 11:53 PM)
k, well it's hard to tell what I mean - I will try again because I could have been try to discribe it a little better wink3.gif

The autopsy doesn't proofed the pill theorie because there were no pills in her stomach or little of it. So the autopsy couldn't give the answer, if she really died because of the fact of pills (as they say) or if it was taken/given in luiqid via a needle or enema. It's not proofed for sure (100%) that she had taken pills that was what I mean wink3.gif - that she died because of an overdose was or is clear for me too.

But what people say what happend is not always what really happend. Maybe everyone should just think it was the way it did.

sadballerina.gif
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Oh okay I think I understand better now!
Indeed the autopsy says "overdose" but can't say how it was provoqued...

So I guess we agree on that one wink3.gif Sorry I misunderstood in the first place, I thought you meant that the autopsy didn't prove that she had ODed from Nembs and/or CH. Now that I read your message again I don't understand why I understood that LOL! Soooorryyyy blush.gif
Still love me ? laugh.gif wink3.gif
Nina
QUOTE(mels @ Sep 16 2004, 10:56 PM)
Still love me ?  laugh.gif  wink3.gif
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hug.gif oh sure dear hug.gif always and forever, hehehe wink3.gif it was my fault!!!
BeyondCamelot
Well.. As a Kennedy fan, first off, I do not believe the Kennedys killed her, intentionally or otherwise. Were they involved in a coverup? Indirectly, yes. I've read over 60 books on the Kennedys, and I like to think I know their personalities as much as someone could have for never meeting them. Bobby was ruthless, yes, but he wasn't a killer. The problem about the idea that the Kennedys were the only ones involved in the murder & coverup is insane, honestly. Could the Kennedy family, alone, have the knowledge of medicine to fake an overdose, destroy all evidence, botch the autopsy, and leave a mystery still going 42 years later? I really, really, don't think so. The Kennedys were lawyers, politicians. Not doctors. JFK himself couldn't have been involved, because of his bad back ( ruptured disc suffered in the attack of PT109, followed by several botched operations ) - he could hardly walk half the time ( the reason he himself didn't slump down during his own assassination is his rigid back brace ), let alone be physically capable of murder.

I think, more or less, the media had a part in the Kennedy affair coverup. It's been documented that the media turned a blind-eye to JFK's affairs during his lifetime, partially out of respect for Jackie & the kids. My grandfather heard, around 1961, from someone who knew a top Kennedy aide, that JFK was having affairs, and he's told me before how he was blown away because the media wasn't covering it and it was the President of the US. The most "explosive" scandal coming forth in the few years after JFK died is a magazine reporting the rumor that JFK had Addison's disease ( this magazine was 1971, I believe ), which wasn't proven until a few years ago. It's entirely possible that yes, RFK had a hand in the destruction of the diary, if it wasn't done by James Angleton ( who was known to have taken possession of ANOTHER diary featuring information about another woman's affair with JFK after her death in October 1964 ).

There's a theory that the mafia killed Marilyn as a warning to RFK to stop attempting to get Jimmy Hoffa, which is why the mystery of her death has never been solved. The theory continues that, when RFK still didn't give it up, the mafia was in on the murder of JFK ( which is linked to the fact Jack Ruby, who shot alleged assassin Lee Harvey Oswald, was a mafia gunrunner ). However, when RFK was running for President, and Hoffa's people had a contract out? RFK's assassinated himself, in a hotel pantry.

Personally, I think there was foul play involved, but I'm not sure as to what extent. Maybe in the actual death, maybe in the crime scene alteration area, who really knows?
Scottish Sugar
I think suicide
Tara
I think it was an accident - I don't believe she was suicidal at that time. I think there was a cover-up by the Kennedys, and also Dr Greenson and Eunice Murray, in the hours after her death. I don't think she was murdered though.

But this is just my opinion - I don't really know for sure. Actually it makes me sad just to write this.
chris
I think that it was a medical error, an accident not really a murder but for sure no suicide
Chris


I saw a few days ago an interesting documentary on Discovery Channel and I learnt many things they explained especially why at the autopsy the coroner didn't discover pills
mels
QUOTE(chris @ Sep 23 2004, 01:23 PM)
I think that it was a medical error, an accident not really a murder but for sure no suicide
Chris


I saw a few days ago an interesting documentary on Discovery Channel and I learnt many things they explained especially why at the autopsy the coroner didn't discover pills
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I saw this wonderful documentary very recently and I really loved it. For once the producers tried to explain what interests us all and made experiments to find the real answer.
There were some mistakes in it though, that were later acknowledged by the doctor who made the pills experiment. You can read more about that here smile1.gif
Fav
I just discovered yet another old documentary I taped in the 80's. It's called Norma Jean alias Marilyn Monroe and is hosted by French actress Catherine Deneuve. They play an audio tape of an interview Marilyn did with Georges Belmont in 1960. In it she states that 'I think that love and work are the only things that really happen to us and everything else doesn't really matter.One without the other isn't so good. I think that trying to be happy is almost as difficult as trying to be a good actress. You have to work at both of them'.

Catherine points out that around the time she died she had been fired from her work and there wasn't anyone special in her life love wise. This may have thrown her into despair. To quote Catherine 'One supposes that a few years later when she was fired, as she put it, and there was no-one in her life just then it didn't leave her much consolation. She must have had moments of despair and depression, short perhaps but crushing, devastating to her. Days when she hated herself. Times when she gave up all hope'.

To actually hear Marilyn saying the words quoted above is very powerful and makes you wonder. Catherine's thoughts make you wonder too.
BlondeAmbition
I believe Spoto's theory. It makes the most sense to me. I believe either Greenson or Ms.Murray gave Marilyn an enema of chloral hydrate to calm her down or in effort to get her under control, without knowing about the Nembutal. Chloral hydrate and Nembutal do not mix, and as Spoto puts it, it was the chloral hydrate that put Marilyn "over the edge". I believe Greenson made a huge mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. In their attempts to keep Marilyn in their control and stay in her life, Greenson and Murray accidently killed her, and proceeded to cover it up, i.e. the washing of the bedsheets, and all the conflicting stories and lies. A tragic accident. I used to want to believe in a murder theory involving the Kennedys, but as I said, after looking over all the possible death theories, this one makes most sense to me.
Nicotschka
QUOTE(Nina @ Sep 15 2004, 08:59 PM)
I do believe she was murdered and voted so. It was for sure a cover up and it had to do with the Kennedys. For me there was never a real investigation of her death. Maybe she had a disapointment with RFK and it was really something dirty and he wanted to calm her down and he hit her and she fall down and was death because of a broken back of the neck. I just said this (it could be so or not like 1000 other things could have been - everything are "could have been theories") but what  I want to say is that the causes of her death are never cleared, they have never been researched well... to tell the world she had commited suicide was the "easiest way" to find a story in 3 or 4 hours... the autopsy didn't proofed the pill theorie but couldn't gave another solution either (or they didn't wanted)...

And really, why did the FBI still make files when books (*l laugh.gif l*) have been published more than 20years after her death? Don't they have other (more important) things to do?
 
JMO
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I totally agree with Nina! For me the Kennedys killed her. Marilyn tried sometimes to kill herself, but she did it always with the chance of beeing founded by someone. And, my god I can't believe that she killed herself with an enema. How? And, why? If it would have been a suicide she would have taken the pills via the normal way...
strawberry
I think it was an accidental death, but I'm keeping my mind open entirely. The best reason I've ever read was in a book, I don't remember which, and it's stuck with me. It was something along the lines of 'she wanted to die for the night, not forever'. I think that's probably true. I suffer from depression and I've often just wanted to drown out the pain but I'm terrified of death. I'd have been quite happy to leave my life for a few hours during my lowest time, and I think Marilyn was too, but not for good. So yes, I think it was probably accidental. A cry for help, perhaps, or just her way of keeping herself and her problems under wraps, but it all went wrong. :(
hazy
I think she was murdered.
sabine
Well, personnally i think that marilyn showed many signs of her impending suicide before her actual death, including her 1961 hospitalization into Payne Whitney.
I fel that marilyn's friends and associated were keeping a 'suicide watch' over marilyn during this time and there are many signs that point toward this fact.
As far as murder, there really isn't much of a Motive here.
Who wanted Marilyn Monroe dead badly enough? There just isn't an answer to this that makes sense.
The Kennedys? I think they had better things to do. Shutting Marilyn out seemed to be their way of dealing with her. The rest of the world already knew of her 'problems'...it would have been easy to dismiss her as a scorned, aging, troubeled moviestar....i also fail to see how murdering her would have been 'safer' and easier to 'cover whatever they wanted to cover' than simply dropping her.
Unless we want to believe that marilyn knew about 'Cuba" and "castro" and the rest of that nonsense. Are people grasping at straws to milk a sensational story out of marilyn's death?
Accidental overdose is totally impossible because the dose was too large....had she taken them all spaced out over time she would have passed out long before she could finish them all.
A high dose of drugs was found in Marilyn's bloodstream...this mean there was one large dose!
The enema theory is downright rediculous but also implausible. After speaking with a Nurse not familar with the details of the case she informed me that the colon is not designed to "absorb", but rater exspell matter. If the colon could absorb these pills it would also absorb the toxic waste our bodies clear away every day......the colon's job is to 'remove' matter from the body, not work in reverse and dump matter into the bloodstream....
Did a lightbulp just go on for you? It sure did for me!!
I think with the nurse explaining this to me i for the first time got a clear picture on how this works.
But what about the empty stomach, you ask.......
Well, she gave me another take on that one that was simple to understand....
She told me that there is no 'digestion' with medication because the pills lack proteins and fats the stomach would have to break down.
The pills would simply 'dissolve' very quickly and be passed along to the intestines, unless slowed down by something solid, such as food.
And we all know Marilyn ate nothing that day.....
I was suprised on how little time this disolving and absorption would actually take.....(under an hour).
We also have to factor in Marilyn's heavy usage of these pills and her body's familiarity with them.
So anyways....i have studied marilyn's life in detail for quite a while...i also rely greatly on my large collection of vintage magazines that were made while Marilyn was actually struggling but alive.....and there is no doubt that she was her own worst enemy.
I am afraid that we're barking up the wrong tree when we talk about all these 'conspiracys' and things, there seems to be no real evidence for.

sabine
Mairi
Personally I think JOE Kennedy hired someone to kill her. While I respect the Kennedys as politicians, I think he was a pretty ruthless person and would do anything he could to get rid of someone that was complicating his sons' lives. I mean, he did some pretty shady stuff besides.

However, this is just my opinion. Until I meet Marilyn up there and ask her what happened, it'll all be just speculation.
Dark_Temptation
I'm doubting between she's murdered and accidental. The both could be true, but I just can't/won't believe that she committed suicide.
marie-marilyn
QUOTE(Dark_Temptation @ Mar 16 2005, 12:56 PM)
I'm doubting between she's murdered and accidental. The both could be true, but I just can't/won't believe that she committed suicide.
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I agree with you there. I don't think she commited suicide either.

Personally, I think it was either the Kennedys or perhaps an accidental overdose...but I am inclined to say she was murdered. Why they would want her dead though...perhaps she knew too much about something?
Clift
In some books I read that the murder is by the Kennedys, and in others books (Daniel Spoto Biography) by an accidental medication. I dont what theory believe! I think that the most true theory is the Donald Spoto, but always have the dude!!

I think the blame of the Marilyn Monroe dead is in Dr. Greenson and the conspirer witch Eunice Murray...

And a little question .... Anybody remember how Marilyn meet the Doctor Greenson??

Sorry for my disastrous english
bye1.gif

PLEASE, C'MON REPLY MY POST! no.gif blush.gif
marie-marilyn
QUOTE(Clift @ Mar 22 2005, 01:00 PM)
And a little question .... Anybody remember how Marilyn meet the Doctor Greenson??
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Early in 1960, Marilyn was consulting with Dr. Ralph Greenson, a prominent psychoanalyst to Hollywood stars. As common during this period, he relied heavily on drug therapy...routinely prescribing barbiturates and tranquilizers in addition to his psychotherapy...

That's a reference I keep coming up with if I search for Dr. Greenson and Marilyn. So defintely by 1960, I can't find anything to suggest they knew each other before that.
Tara
Dr Greenson was recommended to Marilyn by her LA attorney, Milton Rudin. The first known time that Dr Greenson treated MM was in August 1960, when Marilyn was admitted to the Westside Hospital in LA after suffering a breakdown on the set of The Misfits.

According to The Unabridged Marilyn.
sabine
Let's get right to it: The most compelling case for suicide is the fact that Marilyn herself bought the drugs that later killed her. This fact can not be ignored. She also had a history of suicide attempts and a family history of mental disturbances. She had been dpressed and under a psychiatrists care for years. She had been hooked on various drugs for years.
I know this is hard to take and understand. I struggle myself. But i can not ignore the obvious.
All the other stuff like killer enemas and hotshots and murderplots dismiss Marilyn's true problems. This is the problem i have with the conspiracy theories...they have very little proof (if any) to prove their case and they totally ignore what was going on in Marilyn's Life.

my 2 cents worth


sabine
ariella
QUOTE(MM_Yvonne @ Jul 7 2004, 02:49 PM)
i don`t mean it like that Val...but i don`t know how TO put it so that you`ll understand....I`m sorry
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I understand wht you mean, don't woory! I think it's sometimes very hard to put into words wht we mean. What you mean is a large part of marilyn popularity is based on the fact that she died young and that her death was tragic ( no matter how she died it wasn't a "natural" death). If she were alive the truth is she would not be as popular. Fans are focused on her beauty and youth afterall. As a 79 year old woman I believe few people would care about her. It's like james Dean, had he lived his fan base would more than likely be quite small.

So, it would be wonderful had she lived to be older( which I know is what you meant) but her fame would be not as massive as it is now. people worship sex beauty and youth , glamour and tragedy, they don't find a happy, well adjusted older person all that interesting.
sabine
Ariella....good point! thumbup1.gif
look at Marlon Brando...he was huge in the 50's and later he bacame huge, in another, less flattering way. And even though people respected his talent, nobody was gushing over him like they do over James Dean to this day.....don't see a Malon Brando calendar every year, do ya??? Hehehehe... biggrin.gif
It's not fair but it's a fact....
Marilyn as a 79 year old woman, worshipped by the masses? Very unlikely.....she assured her own immortality because of her premature death, as did Dean.
What a price to pay for everlasting fame.... no.gif

sabine
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