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Everlasting Star Community > The experts' lounge > Marilyn's mysterious death > General discussion
the.mmmm.girl
I moved this topic into this forum....it is very interesting.


Celia
QUOTE(the.mmmm.girl @ May 12 2008, 10:33 AM) *
I moved this topic into this forum....it is very interesting.



Where exactly did you move it ??? I can´t find it anymore
Nancy
It's not moved, it's still here:
http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/ind...c=11327&hl=
the.mmmm.girl
Sorry for this confusion- now it´s in the right place...

I am surprised by the nightstand-photo in a different angle. In Maite Minguez Ricart´s book you can read that the swan ashtray- that she owns - stood next to MMs bed on the nightstand containing pills. BUT on the photo there is no ashtray- there is a alarm clock. I really thought for years that this was the ashtray (it looked like the swan´s neck). And I think in some biographies it is mentioned too that there was the ashtray on the nightstand in the bedroom....
Hm- I trust the photos but now I am convinced that there were some "irregualrities" going on that night. The scarf f.i. wasn´t there on the other photo...
2Twinkle
"...The swan ashtray stood at the nightstand in Marilyn´s BEDROOM just next to her bed! You can see that on the picture shown in Anthony Summer´s book and here on ES...but the big surprise for me is that on the pictures above the ashtray stood in HER SUNROOM!!!..."

If you do a google search on marilyn monroe swan, the first result that comes up is a page for Robbyn Swan. Anthony Summers is married to her.

The second result is Swan Lake Marilyn Monroe Impersonator. The first line under this heading is: "Here are the online press kits of 33 professional Swan Lake Marilyn Monroe impersonators and Marilyn Monroe impersonators who will travel to Swan Lake to perform at your event..."

Marilyn is buried in Crypt 33.

In the Finnish epic Kalevala, a swan lives in the Tuoni river located in Tuonela, the underworld realm of the dead... Today, five flying swans are the symbol of the Nordic Countries and the whooper swan (Cygnus cygnus) is the national bird of Finland... from Swan - wikipedia - Role in Culture
Margherita
QUOTE(2Twinkle @ May 13 2008, 12:23 AM) *
"...The swan ashtray stood at the nightstand in Marilyn´s BEDROOM just next to her bed! You can see that on the picture shown in Anthony Summer´s book and here on ES...but the big surprise for me is that on the pictures above the ashtray stood in HER SUNROOM!!!..."



Strange things also happened that night with photographing. I read from some net site or some of my old books, that when Sgt. Clemmons first arrived to the death scene, the vase-style drinking glass the man's finger is pointing at in one photo wasn't by her bed. And as it was essential that there must have been a drinking glass somewhere for M. to swallow the alleged pills, him (Clemmons) and Greenson looked for a drinking glass in the room but couldn't find no such anywhere.
Then afterwards Clemmons saw that picture, and the drinking glass has appeared by the bed in it!
nicky62
The scene was tampered if you look closely there is a handkerchief on the table lamp and in other pics its missing
Nicky62
Celia
QUOTE(nicky62 @ May 14 2008, 05:00 AM) *
The scene was tampered if you look closely there is a handkerchief on the table lamp and in other pics its missing
Nicky62




Could somebody post two different pics of the night stand with and without the swan? If you do , I would appreciate a large size so that we can see what really was on the stand.
It would be interesting!
Thanks marilynbybrandon_190.gif
skookum31
I believe that Marilyn's plumbling in the house was getting worked on, or fixed. So, the plumbing in her bathroom was shut off. Marilyn would have needed to use water to get down the amount of pills, that may have killed her. However, in order to get the water, she'd have to go out of her way to get some, right? If her bathroom blumbing was on-she'd obviously go there for water to use with the pills---- so this is another piece to the puzzle........ rolleyes1.gif


Shana C.
Robby
QUOTE(skookum31 @ Dec 17 2008, 05:06 AM) *
I believe that Marilyn's plumbling in the house was getting worked on, or fixed. So, the plumbing in her bathroom was shut off. Marilyn would have needed to use water to get down the amount of pills, that may have killed her. However, in order to get the water, she'd have to go out of her way to get some, right? If her bathroom blumbing was on-she'd obviously go there for water to use with the pills---- so this is another piece to the puzzle........ rolleyes1.gif
Shana C.


That's not much of a riddle, I mean, she could have gone to her kitchen to get water.
skookum31
QUOTE(Robby @ Dec 18 2008, 05:35 PM) *
That's not much of a riddle, I mean, she could have gone to her kitchen to get water.




I think that all the water in her house was turned off; didn't she have to Dr. Greenson's to have her hair washed, b/c the water was shut off in the entire house?? Maybe she took the pills with something else- but that glass was def. placed there by somebody. huh.gif
JMO, though. blush.gif
socubos
is this the original whole photo?
nicky62
Its strange but I dont beleive in this Photo , cause the way you see whats supposed to be MM does not fit with the story of her face lying on her right side and I have made in photoshop many ways of how she might have been found and to be honest this picture doesnt seem it
but anyways its a photocopy not the original pic so that draws another question
if only someone could gain access to the Leigh Weiner archive which is in a vault somewhere and come foward with the original photographs of MM covered and uncovered it would prove worth whlie that the complete scene includeding her death is a hoax . Its a Coverup !
OMG I think I got carried away
but anyway thats only my opinion thank ou for bringing up the topic
Nicky62
Margherita
What do you mean Nicky? That the whole scene, the story, that she was lying in the bed and everything, was a hoax, but instead she was quite somewhere else - or maybe didn't die at all! banana.gif -or what? Or do you mean that this picture above is fake, a hoax?

In my opinion the person lying in the bed doesn't neither look quite "believable", difficult to define, but somehow; and there's something about it - like why would she had been left there until the time that there was time for somebody to point out the pill bottles and everything, and she's just lying there?

IF that's Marilyn, her back looks like it's turning black and blue, but it can be due to the poor quality of the picture.
nicky62
Hi Ultraviollet :
Yes I mean the photograph . There are many gaps in the death scene why if she was discovered around midnight as Mrs Murray stated did the police arrive at almost 4am? If you read the autopsy report it says that there is faint lividity on her back and her right side of the face has blotches , she could have passed away on her back and soon to make the scene credible placed her face down (right cheek ) and position the body . As many other cases in suicide , there are convulsions before the person passes out slips into coma then death . Most if not all self induced overdose die in a semi fetal position so I IMO think that the scene was tampered . There was no visible body fluids on the clean sheets probably it was washed away by Mrs Murray that explains the washer being used at that time of the night . And the photo being submitted to the documentary from which it was taken you can clearly see its a 4th rate photocopy and if you compare it with the other photo thats included in the documentary her legs are apart not in the soldier position as was stated . So This means that Greenson , Murray and her nephew had lots to do with the setup . Remember that the Fox Studio was also called before calling the police . If she had really intended to take her life where is the suicide note or where are the phone records of that fateful night ?
It keeps going on . As we later learned Marilyn was going to remarry Joe on the same day she as buried plus she had renegotiated her Fox contract resuming her film SGTG in September after Dean Martin filled out some work he had scheduled . But then again this is my beleif . Thank you all for this great topic lets keep going who knows if we do crack the truth ! Nicky62 banana.gif
liza
QUOTE(nicky62 @ Feb 13 2009, 01:40 AM) *
Hi Ultraviollet :
Yes I mean the photograph . There are many gaps in the death scene why if she was discovered around midnight as Mrs Murray stated did the police arrive at almost 4am? If you read the autopsy report it says that there is faint lividity on her back and her right side of the face has blotches , she could have passed away on her back and soon to make the scene credible placed her face down (right cheek ) and position the body . As many other cases in suicide , there are convulsions before the person passes out slips into coma then death . Most if not all self induced overdose die in a semi fetal position so I IMO think that the scene was tampered . There was no visible body fluids on the clean sheets probably it was washed away by Mrs Murray that explains the washer being used at that time of the night . And the photo being submitted to the documentary from which it was taken you can clearly see its a 4th rate photocopy and if you compare it with the other photo thats included in the documentary her legs are apart not in the soldier position as was stated . So This means that Greenson , Murray and her nephew had lots to do with the setup . Remember that the Fox Studio was also called before calling the police . If she had really intended to take her life where is the suicide note or where are the phone records of that fateful night ?
It keeps going on . As we later learned Marilyn was going to remarry Joe on the same day she as buried plus she had renegotiated her Fox contract resuming her film SGTG in September after Dean Martin filled out some work he had scheduled . But then again this is my beleif . Thank you all for this great topic lets keep going who knows if we do crack the truth ! Nicky62 banana.gif



I totally agree, my thoughts too
nicky62
Here is the rendition I made of how I think she was positioned I used Daz3d program and photoshop to render this I will include the rest in same post as soon as I finish them
Nicky62 banana.gif
the.mmmm.girl
Hi Nicky!
You really did a fine job!!! This reconstruction looks so realistic!
But I think MMs face was turned to the other side because you can see on the Discovery Channel pic her blonde hair of her backhead and not her face....
It is really strange because she was found laying on her right side.......I never thought of that!
nicky62
This is what I was talking about . That the picture seen in the Discovery documentary does not fit with the Autopsy report . and it seems to be that even the picture has been faked just look at my rendition and compare the Discovery image looks awkward . I will Include here the colorized version of the 3D Image I made
nicky62
thank you so much Dear here are the renditions
later on in another post I will include on how she couldve passed away (position) banana.gif
Also I dont know bout you guys but every time I see this scene in Bus Stop it makes me think of the way she passed away with Mrs Murray and her Nephew in the Bedroom cleaning things up . Even the Bedroom in the movie kinda resembles Marilyns ! EERIE
but then again its my opinion
Margherita
Nicky, that's superb! You must be or become world famous! I haven't seen anywhere this kind of reconstruction done yet, in her case.

What comes to the resemblance of the bedrooms, well, the bedroom in Bus Stop and in her mexican style house aren't quite alike, but then of course they are normal american bedrooms with a large bed in the middle, some door and windows, not too different from each other but not identical.
What comes to her position, well it's allways of course her, so she would have her typical way of lying and stretching her limbs, so that would also determine in what position she would fall asleep or pass away - maybe. Unless the death would have happened in a more less ordinary position, like the fetus one, in which she may have died, but then her body must have been rearranged soon after her death because of the quick stiffening that would prevent any new arrangement.

In the last picture she seems like being peacefully in a sleep though .
pinup
What I have also noticed is how few photographs there are of the scene. Usually in cases like this there are lots of photgraphs taken of the whole scene and then of smaller details. Also why do is the noght stand taken in close up, at this stage the police shouldnt have assumed anything, its like they already 'know' (or have been told?) that Marilyn died as a consequence if the pills taken on the night stand, so they have taken a picture to back up this story. IMO I think by taking few pictures they were detracting from the truth. Also the biggest bit of evidence in the room is Marilyns body, why are there no close up pictures of her so her position is clearly defined in the bed. And why isnt the broken window used as a piece of evidence? Obviously Greenson and Murray would have given an explanation for the broken window, but the police should not have taken their word for it and looked at all eventualities at this stage.
Fav
Someone mentioned earlier about how could she have gotten water to swallow pills if all of the house's water was shut off. If it was shut off, would this not have shut the water off from the washing machine too which is recorded as being used that night. I don't know enough about plumbing to say whether it would be effected or not. Plus re the photo of Marilyn in bed if it is real , sometimes photos get reversed for whatever reasons, so everything looks the wrong way round. Maybe that happened here.
QUOTE(socubos @ Feb 12 2009, 12:47 AM) *
is this the original whole photo?
I forgot to ask. Where did you find this Slavi?
liza
QUOTE(Fav @ Feb 21 2009, 03:47 PM) *
Someone mentioned earlier about how could she have gotten water to swallow pills if all of the house's water was shut off. If it was shut off, would this not have shut the water off from the washing machine too which is recorded as being used that night. I don't know enough about plumbing to say whether it would be effected or not.

Plus re the photo of Marilyn in bed if it is real (and if it is it has freaked me out as I didn't want expect to actually see her dead in this thread despite the forum topic), sometimes photos get reversed for whatever reasons, so everything looks the wrong way round. Maybe that happened here.



O God, Sorry for my English but here I go:
The water was'nt shut of completely but only in her badroom because it was renovated or something.
I, would like to see every pic from the deadscene and discussing it here.
The picture was not reversed because you can read on the pictures that are in close up the labels of the pills so they are not reversed.
I have read somewhere that there were pictures of the deadscene but that the FBI destroyed them.
O Gosh, what is real and what is not, I think we will never know.
Margherita
I'm not sure that the various pictures of the death scene have been destroyed, they most certainly lie in some "valve" or another, maybe for future release, or forgotten.

During the time of her death they were not needed, the only picture/s that served the purpose to make her death look like suicide are the few ones with her lying there and This Famous Finger pointing at the night stand with its empty pill bottles.
Marilyn Fanatic
The jug on the floor with the stopper like glass turned upside down is a "water set". I've seen a lot of these at antique
sales as people used them next to their bed at night before we had plumbing. I don't know if she used it for that reason,
but it is a water set. It's also pretty far from her and doubtful that she would have placed the glass back upside down on
it and moved it away from her after taking the pills. I just found it strange that it's never mentioned. I also would like
to know if it was sold in that Christie's auction if anyone knows.
MMforever
In response to someone's post about the facial marks- what happens generally when someone dies & please correct me if I am wrong, but if a person is laying down on face or leg or whatever, the blood will rush to that particular area causing what looks to appear as a bruise, but its not. In this case, Marilyn was laying on her right side of her face for several hours so the blood rushed to that side of her face makign it look like she was bruised.


I think thats how it happens but I can't remember ; I know I learned about it though.

thank you. throb.gif
lillis3
QUOTE(nicky62 @ Feb 12 2009, 04:45 AM) *
Its strange but I dont beleive in this Photo , cause the way you see whats supposed to be MM does not fit with the story of her face lying on her right side and I have made in photoshop many ways of how she might have been found and to be honest this picture doesnt seem it
but anyways its a photocopy not the original pic so that draws another question
if only someone could gain access to the Leigh Weiner archive which is in a vault somewhere and come foward with the original photographs of MM covered and uncovered it would prove worth whlie that the complete scene includeding her death is a hoax . Its a Coverup !
OMG I think I got carried away
but anyway thats only my opinion thank ou for bringing up the topic
Nicky62


Here is the photo again - its in very good quality, maybe you've seen it already? Its on display on an LAPD exhibit.
Candle
QUOTE(Marilyn Fanatic @ Mar 2 2009, 03:31 PM) *
The jug on the floor with the stopper like glass turned upside down is a "water set". I've seen a lot of these at antique
sales as people used them next to their bed at night before we had plumbing. I don't know if she used it for that reason,
but it is a water set. It's also pretty far from her and doubtful that she would have placed the glass back upside down on
it and moved it away from her after taking the pills. I just found it strange that it's never mentioned. I also would like
to know if it was sold in that Christie's auction if anyone knows.


I just saw this response from over a year ago. I can answer your question about the jug with the stopper next to the bedside. It did sell at the Christie's auction in 1999 in a lot of Marilyn's Mexican pottery and kitchen related wares. I am aware of the person who purchased it from Christie's, but whether he still owns the piece, I do not know. I suspect he is aware of the significance of the item being displayed in Marilyn's bedroom and will not part with it anytime soon.

I have always wondered whether that pottery piece was filled with water, and have found no reports to date that spoke of whether it had any liquid contents in it or not? I can only assume that as it looked like an obvious choice for storing water, it was inspected by the investigators and Sgt Clemmons at the scene, and found to have no liquid in it on that fateful night?
Mezzo
I'm sure that by now we've all seen the following photo, but I hadn't seen its back side before.
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment
zeldazonk61
Why would she sleep with an alarm clock on her dressing table if she has trouble sleeping? I know when I cant sleep, the sound of the ticking is excruciating. Plus looking at what time it is only makes trying to go to sleep harder. Maybe I'm being picky, but I doubt someone with constant insomnia would sleep with a clock right beside their bed. I mean the way it is placed in this photo its pretty much right in her face. It all seems staged to me.

Also re the pill bottles. If this photo was for the private use of the Police, then why would they need to point out the bottles, let alone take a long distance shot. Wouldn't they have just taken a close up of the pill bottles themselves, and a shot of the scene. The pointing to the bottles seems done for the public and media.

Also why would she put all the caps back on the bottles after taking the amount of pills she supposedly took.
Alanma
Regarding the photo in Lillis3's post above of an un-named hand pointing at the bedside table.

The hand's owner was an interesting person.
This appears about him in the current "After The Battle" magazine.

"He was Marine Don Marshal. Born in 1926, Don lived a remarkable life ever since his dad moved the family West from Springfield, Illinois to California in their old Model T.Ford.
Don served with the 5th Marine Division in WW2 and later in Korea. He joined the Los Angeles Police Dept and was one of the first officers on the scene when Marilyn Monroe was found dead..... it was his hand that appears in the widely-published photo of her bedside table.
Upon retirement he went with his third wife Johna on a goldmining adventure at Mariposa, but when she died he moved to Alaska with his dog Johny.
.........a prolific writer, lecturer and actor....he loved the hard life in Alaska where one summer he was surrounded by a forest fire, and, in Winter, had to cut his meat with a chainsaw. A grizzly once attacked his trailer.
His visiting card announced -

"Let us win your hearts and minds or we'll burn your d***** house down"

He died at 84 on Nov 3rd 2010."
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