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Everlasting Star Community > The experts' lounge > Marilyn's mysterious death > General discussion
blueyedlady87
I noticed a huge contradiction in Eunice Murray's interview. I'm wondering if anyone can help me sort it out. In the documentary she states that she randomly woke up sometime between 11:00-midnight. She noticed a light under Marilyn's door and automatically panicked. She said she got a poker and went to the outside of Marilyn's window (after finding the door locked). She says she used the poker to push open the curtains and saw Marilyn lying nude in the position she was eventually found in. Then she called Greenson who got there within minutes. Now she says that he used the poker to BREAK the window and went in and opened it from the inside. Eunice says she met him inside where he said, "We've lost her."

Great story...except how did she use the poker to pry open the curtains if the window wasn't broken? There weren't curtains on the outside of Marilyn's bedroom and from what pictures/house plan I've seen there's only one window. Plus, the window had bars on it! How did Greenson fit through the tiny bars? In photos taken later that day by paparazzos, the window is seen broken but bars intact. So someone is lying.

And don't get me started on the crime scene! If she was found when Eunice said she was, why were police not called until 4-5 am? She says they had to call the studio first. Why? And if so, that's fine. It wouldn't take 4-5 hours. I don't understand with all this evidence how Greenson and Eunice were never subpeneoed after all these years. Also, there were no traces of pills in her system! That leaves one way they got there- by shot or enema. I think Enema given by Eunice at the direction of Greenson at the direction of God knows who else. Why has Eunice changed her story so many times, lied, and then said she 'doesn't remember' unless she has something to hide. Something shady went down and I'd love to know what.

PS- Have you ever heard of an overdose dying in that position, totally clean? It doesn't happen! Many suicides by pills actually die from choking on their own vomit. The body would try to save itself by retching. Not to mention, the body would go into massive convulsions. There would be clear evidence. I don't know if Eunice or Greene is alive still, but in my opinion they need to be held accountable before they die.
meganmarilyn
I heard that one of the 1st owners of Marilyn's house after she died, they were doing some remodeling or something, and they found recording devices in the ceilings and walls. Someone who is a more historian on this topic can give better insight. So in my mind it seems the mob did have her house wired.
blueyedlady87
Yes her house was bugged. But by who is the question. The Kennedys? Perhaps, she reportedly was told about national security issues; maybe they wanted to make sure she wouldn't blab to anyone. The mob...why would they single her out individually? I never had heard of her having any direct ties to her, except maybe through the Kennedys. Joe DiMaggio could have had it bugged. He was in love with her and wanted her to himself. You remember the Wrong Door Raid? He wasn't above spying on her in the past and if they had rekindled their romance, maybe his old fears returned. Marilyn told others she was afraid her house was bugged, I wonder whom she thought was responsible. Personally, Joe seems the most likely but I don't think he had anything to do with the murder/accident.Hi Duke! Thanks for the well-thought out reply. I agree it quite possibly could have been an accident. Still, at the minimum there was gross misconduct and negligence going on. I don't buy Murray being all religious. She has told so many lies over the years about Marilyn's death that she has implicated herself in it to many people's eyes. I think she was a terrible person to spy on Marilyn for Greenson while simultaneously earning her trust and money. Just one question- if it was an honest, albeit tragic, mistake, then why did both Greenson and Murray do so much to 'cover-up' their actions? And what of the evidence that was forever 'lost' by the LAPD? Nowadays they'd be sued to high hell for losing evidence. Anyhow, attached (if I did it right!) is an in-depth analysis of Marilyn's chemical/tox reports. It is basically proof she did not swallow the pills that killed her. So how did they get into her system? I fear we'll never know the truth.
albosil
Is there any truth to one of the Kennedys being there the night Marilyn died? I read a long time ago that the neighbors reported seeing (i want to say) Robert Kennedy. :/
suusmarie
QUOTE(albosil @ Jan 1 2008, 03:42 AM) *
Is there any truth to one of the Kennedys being there the night Marilyn died? I read a long time ago that the neighbors reported seeing (i want to say) Robert Kennedy. :/


After being a fan for over 20 years and reading many books I would say the Kennedy's had nothing to do with her death.

If you type 'Kennedy' in the search engine of this forum you will find many threads were the Kennedy's are discussed coolio.gif
Meikkuli
QUOTE(TheDuke @ Dec 18 2007, 03:22 PM) *
She died in 1993. not far from Marilyn's old home actually.

Eunice Murray said that she saw light under Marilyn's locked door. How could she when there was heavy plush carpet in the hall which covered the bottom of the door and there was no lock on Marilyn's door, both of these facts are in the police report about the house.

Eunice Murray and/or Ralph Greenson covered up a disastrous mistake by one or both of them in Marilyn's treatment. That's the only logical explanation for the 5 hour delay. Murder doesn't make sense, either by Ralph Greenson, Eunice Murray or anyone else.

Because of the following.

1. As criminally incompetent as Greenson was as a psychiatrist, he was no murderer. The Hippocratic oath was sacred to him.

2. Eunice Murray was into Swedenborgianism which was all about God's mercy and pure love, as touted by Emmanuel Swedenborg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg) so the likelyhood of her murdering Marilyn is so ridiculous a concept that it doesn't even bear questioning.

3. The Kennedy's were moral vacuums of the worst kind but the murder of one actress (she had been discredited a lot in Hollywood through her percieved superiority) who was hardly a threat when Jack was having affairs with Red Chinese spies (according to Anthony Summers) is just pointless. He had a lot more things to get him into trouble than having relations with Marilyn.

4. The mob wouldn't do it...she was the most famous woman in the world and if there was even a hint of their involvement, it would make the Kefauver hearings look trivial in comparison. Especially if that Zealot Bobby Kennedy A) had an affair with Marilyn and B) even halfway cared about her.

5. Marilyn had just re-signed with Fox for a lot more money to start again on SGTG and was hooking up with Joe again so why would she kill herself?

6. There wouldn't be a cover up if Marilyn O.D.'d. There would reason for sadness but there would be the "oh, what a stupid cow she was for killing herself when she got what she wanted" reaction by some people.

That leaves the only logical answer as being either Ralph Greenson and or Eunice Murray had something to hide...a failure of treatment...or gross medical error.

Or if you would, involuntary manslaughter or if they D.A. wanted to try for it, Criminally Negligent Homicide.



Only commenting on number 5.
I don't believe they were hooking up again, and I don't think there's definitive proof they were.
Also, your life might look real happy from the outside, but if you suffer from depression, it can just take over you no matter how others think everything "should be fine". Then there could be moments of sheer desperation (especially if you've been drinking) when you do something you (should you survive) would regret in the morning... Depression cannot be explained with logic.
Alanma
I found this little quotation from Thomas Hardy, the great English novelist and poet.
It seems appropriate.
Think about it.

"O, doth a bird deprived of wings
Go earth-bound wilfully?"
TheDuke
QUOTE(Meikkuli @ Jan 3 2008, 12:38 PM) *
Only commenting on number 5.
I don't believe they were hooking up again, and I don't think there's definitive proof they were.
Also, your life might look real happy from the outside, but if you suffer from depression, it can just take over you no matter how others think everything "should be fine". Then there could be moments of sheer desperation (especially if you've been drinking) when you do something you (should you survive) would regret in the morning... Depression cannot be explained with logic.


I don't like airing my life in public so I'll just say this, I have extensive knowledge of a depressed person who took their own life and that person's emotional trauma was on full display.

On her and Joe, I'm going on Donald Spoto (whom I'd say the majority of people would accept as more than credible) who said they'd made plans to remarry. And he was in her life after he got her out of Payne-Whitney.


--------

QUOTE(Alanma @ Jan 6 2008, 06:37 PM) *
I found this little quotation from Thomas Hardy, the great English novelist and poet.
It seems appropriate.
Think about it.

"O, doth a bird deprived of wings
Go earth-bound wilfully?"



Alan, I know it's absolutely not your intention but you have this talent for making me feel sad about Marilyn even when I'm otherwise happy.

Meikkuli
QUOTE(TheDuke @ Jan 7 2008, 04:02 PM) *
I don't like airing my life in public so I'll just say this, I have extensive knowledge of a depressed person who took their own life and that person's emotional trauma was on full display.

On her and Joe, I'm going on Donald Spoto (whom I'd say the majority of people would accept as more than credible) who said they'd made plans to remarry. And he was in her life after he got her out of Payne-Whitney.
--------
Alan, I know it's absolutely not your intention but you have this talent for making me feel sad about Marilyn even when I'm otherwise happy.


Well, I know how depression can be too - from personal experience, but let's leave it at that... (Someone's already ridiculing me for it all over the net)
I by no means that Spoto is not a good source, but he DOES make his mistakes too. Nor do I deny Joe was in her life after Payne-Whitney, and I do believe JOE maybe wanted the remarriage... however, I have other sources on which I am basing my doubts that they were planning such a thing. And even if they were or would have started dating again, I really don't believe they had set the wedding date and that was to become the day of MM's funeral. But these are all opinions smile1.gif
TheDuke
I accept your differing view. Other than a cursory glance at Michelle Morgan's book (I've not had the financial wherewithall to purchase it) and one or two other biographies (Leaming, Guiles) I've largely stayed a way from Marilyn's life story. It isn't like it's going to change everytime I read it. I prefer her work to her life...if you'll pardon the callousness.

Donald Spoto always struck me as being legitimate (his rage at Ralph Greenson aside) but you and another poster (who put it infiintely less politiely) have placed a seed of doubt in my mind.

Meikkuli
Actually her life story changes quite a bit depending which book you read smile1.gif That's how I got initially fascinated in it - it was like reading about a different person every time... Not the straight out facts, of course, but her character does. Yeah, I do count Spoto as one of the more credible books, but before Michelle's book (which is now my favorite) I always preferred Guiles's first book myself.
Tara
I agree with you Merja, I would place Michelle and Guiles at the top of my list, with Spoto next in line. He wrote a good biography but it is flawed. I don't think Marilyn was planning to remarry Joe at this stage either, though they were in touch of course.

I also agree that depression is unpredictable and can happen even to people in outwardly positive circumstances...
psyche
QUOTE(blueyedlady87 @ Dec 18 2007, 07:21 PM) *
Plus, the window had bars on it! How did Greenson fit through the tiny bars? In photos taken later that day by paparazzos, the window is seen broken but bars intact. So someone is lying.


just to clear this up to anyone else who might read it..... From pictures of the crime scene I've seen, there were no bars on Marilyn's window at this time. I believe that the bars came later with new owners. I'd like to see which photos you are referring to.


EDIT: I just watched a video on youtube of an interview with Eunice...and she stated that there were bars only on part of the window.......huh? I don't remember seeing bars over her window at all, it just seems weird.
magda24
QUOTE(Meikkuli @ Jan 7 2008, 10:00 PM) *
Well, I know how depression can be too - from personal experience, but let's leave it at that... (Someone's already ridiculing me for it all over the net)
I by no means that Spoto is not a good source, but he DOES make his mistakes too. Nor do I deny Joe was in her life after Payne-Whitney, and I do believe JOE maybe wanted the remarriage... however, I have other sources on which I am basing my doubts that they were planning such a thing. And even if they were or would have started dating again, I really don't believe they had set the wedding date and that was to become the day of MM's funeral. But these are all opinions smile1.gif


I agree with you Merja!!!It reminds me of sth Marlon Brando once said about MM:how can a girl with succes, fame, youth, money, beauty kill herself?Nobody could understand it cause those are the things that everybody wants, and they can't believe that life wasn't important to Marilyn Monroe, or that her life was elsewhere. I always think of this when I hear that Marilyn was too happy to kill herself at that time. It's not true,believe me...when you are depressed( I mean medical condition which we belive Marilyn suffered from) sometimes life-no matter how glamorous- can seem to hard to cope with...
abeautifulchild
QUOTE(suusmarie @ Jan 2 2008, 02:15 AM) *
After being a fan for over 20 years and reading many books I would say the Kennedy's had nothing to do with her death.



QUOTE(Meikkuli @ Jan 3 2008, 05:38 PM) *
your life might look real happy from the outside, but if you suffer from depression, it can just take over you no matter how others think everything "should be fine". Then there could be moments of sheer desperation (especially if you've been drinking) when you do something you (should you survive) would regret in the morning... Depression cannot be explained with logic.



QUOTE(magda24 @ Apr 17 2008, 12:28 AM) *
I agree with you Merja!!!It reminds me of sth Marlon Brando once said about MM:how can a girl with succes, fame, youth, money, beauty kill herself?Nobody could understand it cause those are the things that everybody wants, and they can't believe that life wasn't important to Marilyn Monroe, or that her life was elsewhere. I always think of this when I hear that Marilyn was too happy to kill herself at that time. It's not true,believe me...when you are depressed( I mean medical condition which we belive Marilyn suffered from) sometimes life-no matter how glamorous- can seem to hard to cope with...


I definitely agree with all three of you. I always get the whole Kennedy thing thrown in my face, but I just don't buy it. Maybe she killed herself, maybe she didn't. But the point is that she was basically slowly killing herself for the last couple of years in her life. We knew that she needed the pills and that she was in constant pain (emotional and physical), but she abused them. That much is clear. I feel that that night was the final straw in a way. She had a self-destructive streak. And whether she was insane or not, she was in my opinion, obviously disturbed and had a lot of demons. That is something that never goes away and just gets worse and worse if you're not in the right surroundings, etc. Marilyn needed help and she never got it. You know, people don't know how good of an actress she was. What, she seemed happy during a five minute phone call? That doesn't really cover it. Just think about how sad 1962 was for her. Remember her insomnia. Imagine lying awake almost all night thinking about the things that have went wrong in your life. Think about that and then tell me that you think that it was impossible that her death was an accident.

I always remember this that I read somewhere:

"Marilyn! Champagne and pills- that stuff could kill you!"
*with a wink* "Well it hasn't killed me- yet."

The body cannot survive under abuse forever.
psyche
You make some good points abeautifulchild, as well as everyone else regarding the possibility that she did infact kill herself,accidental or on purpose.

I can completely understand why Marilyn would do it. I myself have been suicidal, and it creeps back up again a couple times a year at least where I'm feeling so desperate and just, so tired. And if she did it, then that is HER choice. (didn't she say somewhere that she believed that a person had a right to decide when they die?).

If she did it accidentally....well, I just don't entirely think that was possible. She KNEW that it was dangerous, but like many people have stated before, Marilyn was so experienced with her drug taking...she knew about the tablets and how many to take and etc, lord knows she had enough experience. and it wasn't like nothing like this had ever happened before,as i'm sure she was well aware. However then we look at someone like Heath Ledger who I'm sure had some inkling that the things he was doing were wrong (Jack Nicholson stated that he had warned him about his habits..), and yet it still happens...

my problem isn't in that she may have caused her own death.my problem is with the evidence. things don't line up right, there are too many loose ends and bizarre happenings around the whole thing. How can you explain the missing organ samples for instance? That had never happened before, and to my recollection hasn't happened since. Sure there's a first time for everything, but how convenient it seems that the first time happened to be with Marilyn Monroe, one of the biggest stars ever known.

it's not about being gossip mongers or after sensationalism...it's about looking at the facts.some things make sense, and alot of things don't. that's all there is to it.
abeautifulchild
QUOTE(psyche @ Apr 17 2008, 04:44 AM) *
You make some good points abeautifulchild, as well as everyone else regarding the possibility that she did infact kill herself,accidental or on purpose.

I can completely understand why Marilyn would do it. I myself have been suicidal, and it creeps back up again a couple times a year at least where I'm feeling so desperate and just, so tired. And if she did it, then that is HER choice. (didn't she say somewhere that she believed that a person had a right to decide when they die?).

If she did it accidentally....well, I just don't entirely think that was possible. She KNEW that it was dangerous, but like many people have stated before, Marilyn was so experienced with her drug taking...she knew about the tablets and how many to take and etc, lord knows she had enough experience. and it wasn't like nothing like this had ever happened before,as i'm sure she was well aware. However then we look at someone like Heath Ledger who I'm sure had some inkling that the things he was doing were wrong (Jack Nicholson stated that he had warned him about his habits..), and yet it still happens...

my problem isn't in that she may have caused her own death.my problem is with the evidence. things don't line up right, there are too many loose ends and bizarre happenings around the whole thing. How can you explain the missing organ samples for instance? That had never happened before, and to my recollection hasn't happened since. Sure there's a first time for everything, but how convenient it seems that the first time happened to be with Marilyn Monroe, one of the biggest stars ever known.

it's not about being gossip mongers or after sensationalism...it's about looking at the facts.some things make sense, and alot of things don't. that's all there is to it.


Yeah, I have some experience there too and I think that it is something that just...comes at you and gets you...even out of nowhere sometimes.

Marilyn did have a lot of experience, and I read that she WAS very knowledgable about her drugs and all that too. But I also read that some people close to her said that she would take pills, then wake up and take some again, or forget that she ever took any so she would take even more...so I think in that way it could have been an accident. Or maybe she intended to commit suicide, but then changed her mind but it was too late, who knows? I just really think that it was an accident, and unless the truth is revealed about what happened to her that night, that is what I will always think.

Although, I admit that you are right. There are a lot of things that seem very fishy and just don't make any sense. It's those little details like yes, the missing organs, that make me think that theres a possibility that it could have been murder. But I just have this gut feeling that it was an accident. Maybe I'm wrong. As far as a cover-up and the Kennedys' are concerned, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I believe the only "cover-up" that they were involved in was removing the evidence of their affairs with Marilyn. I just do not think they killed her at all.

But it's so hard to even attempt to guess at what happened that night; everyone has their own opinion, but I really don't think we will ever know.
magda24
I always had the feeling that EVERYTHING was possible-the suicide, the accidental overdose, the murder...Sometimes I was almost convinced that it was murder, then after reading sth, that she killed herself another...Since we probably will never know, I try not to think too much about her death. I focus on her life-look how many secrets she kept from us there! A mysterious women go away in mysterious ways...
Margherita
I'm myself too a bit tired to ponder about her death, although I remain thinking that she was murdered, intentionally.

Here's an interesting link. It's quite heavy stuff, if you go through it it'll take some time but there's a lot of details concerning the night she died and secrets she had been told I haven't read precisely before.

educationforum.ipbhost.com

And from there, look for the subject The death of Marilyn Monroe.

I hope the link still works.
magda24
QUOTE(Ultraviolet @ Apr 17 2008, 11:17 AM) *
I'm myself too a bit tired to ponder about her death, although I remain thinking that she was murdered, intentionally.

Here's an interesting link. It's quite heavy stuff, if you go through it it'll take some time but there's a lot of details concerning the night she died and secrets she had been told I haven't read precisely before.

educationforum.ipbhost.com

And from there, look for the subject The death of Marilyn Monroe.

I hope the link still works.

Thanks, some interesting topics there!And they write about this engraved watch MM gave to JFK...I always thought it was a hoax!Those men seem to know a lot about conspiracy theoreis.
psyche

ultraviolet,thanks for that link! I'll have a deep look into it after class!!

abeautifulchild, I definitely see where you're coming from too. I can see easily how Marilyn might have died accidentally. To be honest, if it weren't for the strange discrepancies and general oddities about her death, I would be the first in line saying that she took her own life.

(thanks for the interesting info about others saying she often forgot she took pills at all....I never knew that!)

I don't think it was something she started doing and then changed her mind last minute....because then what about the mess, the pills in her mouth as had happened the times before? and then why didn't greenson and murray and etc just tell the TRUTH about it if that's what happened?

I sometimes have a hard time believing the Kennedy's were involved too.....but politics is not free from coverups, from personal agendas. so it wouldn;t surprise me. you just never ever know how a person would behave, what would be enough to motivate them to action.

I don't know. It's so frustrating to me that we will never know, though a part of me feels guilty for wanting to know. a person's death is a private, personal moment. I guess I just wish that if she was wronged, some sort of justice or closure or clearing of her name can be given her or at least her memory.

abeautifulchild
QUOTE(psyche @ Apr 17 2008, 02:07 PM) *
ultraviolet,thanks for that link! I'll have a deep look into it after class!!

abeautifulchild, I definitely see where you're coming from too. I can see easily how Marilyn might have died accidentally. To be honest, if it weren't for the strange discrepancies and general oddities about her death, I would be the first in line saying that she took her own life.

(thanks for the interesting info about others saying she often forgot she took pills at all....I never knew that!)

I don't think it was something she started doing and then changed her mind last minute....because then what about the mess, the pills in her mouth as had happened the times before? and then why didn't greenson and murray and etc just tell the TRUTH about it if that's what happened?

I sometimes have a hard time believing the Kennedy's were involved too.....but politics is not free from coverups, from personal agendas. so it wouldn;t surprise me. you just never ever know how a person would behave, what would be enough to motivate them to action.

I don't know. It's so frustrating to me that we will never know, though a part of me feels guilty for wanting to know. a person's death is a private, personal moment. I guess I just wish that if she was wronged, some sort of justice or closure or clearing of her name can be given her or at least her memory.



Well, who's to say they weren't telling the truth? They had to assume it was a suicide because of the massive amount of pills she had ingested. Greenson of course was later said to have stated that he changed his mind, and felt that she did not commit suicide. Might he have thought it was just an accident? He never said to my knowledge.

Regarding what you said about the Kennedy's-
True, but if the reason for the cover-up/murder was to silence Marilyn because she was going to call a press conference- I don't think they took her seriously about that. It was probably something she said out of anger, more like. And the Kennedy's obviously didn't respect her as a person or regard her in high importance (or intelligence), so of course they wouldn't suspect that she would really go through with anything that would betray them; I'm sure they felt very self-righteous and thought that she was so hopelessy hung up on them that she would never do such a thing. Pssh. Secondly, Marilyn's press agent and publicist would have a hand in it, and I doubt Pat Newcomb and Rupert Allan would allow it to happen.

I don't know, maybe I'm just biased, but I don't think the Kennedys would have her murdered. I think they must have had SOME feeling for her....to be that heartless? I just don't know...maybe I'm naive.
californiadude
QUOTE(psyche @ Apr 17 2008, 11:37 PM) *
and then why didn't greenson and murray and etc just tell the TRUTH about it if that's what happened?


Greenson was her physicist right? Any patient of any physicist commiting suicide would be like they failed.. everyone knew about him because he was Marilyn Monroe's physicist, and if she committed suiced it is as if he failed.
Margherita
QUOTE(californiadude @ May 1 2008, 07:49 AM) *
Greenson was her physicist right? Any patient of any physicist commiting suicide would be like they failed.. everyone knew about him because he was Marilyn Monroe's physicist, and if she committed suiced it is as if he failed.



Ralph Greenson was Marilyn's psychiatrist, not physicist. Phychiatrists during their career and life usually have to face many cases when their personal patients commit suicide, either depressed or some other serious mental problems. It's part of their job and never considered among that profession that the psychiatrist has "failed". A psychiatric profession is not a competition where sunny and happy results are being automatically expected to happen. It's not sports, where one can "fail".

The patient goes through the psych. prosession usually many years, and the result may be satisfying, half-satisfying or in the end - like in Marilyn's case - he/she may notice that it hasn't been that useful at all. I think Marilyn realized it.
californiadude
Whoops! blush.gif BIG spelling mistake there.. how embarrassing! laugh.gif

I don't take suicide lightly, and I certainly don't consider it a sport if thats what your trying to say. I've just heard before that Greenson wouldn't want people to think that because of his job, because he job was to help people? And I thought it made a lot of sense. That if he wasnt seen succesful in helping his patient then people would think he couldn't actually do his job. But again, I got this from a documentary.. which I thought made sense.

But, I really don't know a lot about Marilyn's death, and it's really not my strong point in my personal Marilyn knowledge, but I would just like to let everyone know that I didn't compare it to a "sport", and I really hope nobody else thought that. bye1.gif
abeautifulchild
QUOTE(californiadude @ May 1 2008, 10:03 AM) *
Whoops! blush.gif BIG spelling mistake there.. how embarrassing! laugh.gif

I don't take suicide lightly, and I certainly don't consider it a sport if thats what your trying to say. I've just heard before that Greenson wouldn't want people to think that because of his job, because he job was to help people? And I thought it made a lot of sense. That if he wasnt seen succesful in helping his patient then people would think he couldn't actually do his job. But again, I got this from a documentary.. which I thought made sense.

But, I really don't know a lot about Marilyn's death, and it's really not my strong point in my personal Marilyn knowledge, but I would just like to let everyone know that I didn't compare it to a "sport", and I really hope nobody else thought that. bye1.gif


hug.gif Oh honey, I don't think anyone got that impression at all, don't worry!

And I agree, it's a horrible thing for a psychiatrist personally when a patient commits suicide (if that's what happened to Marilyn...). Naturally, Greenson was devastated over Marilyn's death. They say he never recovered from the grief he experienced. People said that he just wasn't ever the same.
jonas
Greenson's very personal approach in handling Marilyn's issues were criticised by the psychiatric community. They felt that he went way past the limit.Though, he is also said to have tried this "technique" with other patients.Not just Marilyn.
abeautifulchild
I believe that he was trying to help her, but why make her get rid of some of her dearest friends? Although it was controversial that he brought her into his home to meet with his family, I really don't see too much wrong with it. I think he was trying to instill a feeling of being wanted and liked by others in her. Try to give her a sense of belonging to a family that she never had...

I do remember that there were times that Marilyn didn't want to go to her sessions, but he forced her to come in anyway...I guess he became too involved. I think he was having what they call a (platonic) "rescue fantasty" over her, myself.
jonas
QUOTE(abeautifulchild @ May 7 2008, 04:34 AM) *
I believe that he was trying to help her, but why make her get rid of some of her dearest friends? Although it was controversial that he brought her into his home to meet with his family, I really don't see too much wrong with it. I think he was trying to instill a feeling of being wanted and liked by others in her. Try to give her a sense of belonging to a family that she never had...

I do remember that there were times that Marilyn didn't want to go to her sessions, but he forced her to come in anyway...I guess he became too involved. I think he was having what they call a (platonic) "rescue fantasty" over her, myself.


Good point abeautifulchild, but it doesn't seem to be standard procedure within the psychiatric "community". If that's right or wrong, I don't know. Though,it's interesting to verify that when it was first suspected that something might be wrong with Marilyn, Greenson was the first called to the scene. No family,no friends,no Jeanne Carmen-who was celebrating her 32nd birthday- no police and no ambulance. It was Greenson who was called! Thus, it seems as if Murray had some responding to do in relation to Greenson. A housekeeper to a psychiatrist. Could she have felt the same "obligation" to Greenson when Marilyn was still alive? If Greenson was her "confident", then most likely she revealed to him everything that went on at 12305 5th Helena Drive.
Margherita
QUOTE(jonas @ May 9 2008, 12:42 AM) *
Good point abeautifulchild, but it doesn't seem to be standard procedure within the psychiatric "community". If that's right or wrong, I don't know. Though,it's interesting to verify that when it was first suspected that something might be wrong with Marilyn, Greenson was the first called to the scene. No family,no friends,no Jeanne Carmen-who was celebrating her 32nd birthday- no police and no ambulance. It was Greenson who was called! Thus, it seems as if Murray had some responding to do in relation to Greenson. A housekeeper to a psychiatrist. Could she have felt the same "obligation" to Greenson when Marilyn was still alive? If Greenson was her "confident", then most likely she revealed to him everything that went on at 12305 5th Helena Drive.


All that you've written makes sense; I think too that Greenson while treating Marilyn went over many limits, maybe he was even in love with her! And he really may have had some sort of rescue fantasy on her, allthough I don't believe the Spoto-books theory that he wanted to use Marilyn to raise his own career profile in Hollywood- I mean, what cold heartedness it would have been, to kill somebody to embetter one's own career, then he would have been a real criminal in this case; which is of course what many suggest.

banana.gif

About Greenson inviting Marilyn every day to a conversation session, dine with his family and all, I think it had quite a lot to do with all the 60's new ideas - getting rid of old ways to do things, being revolutionary and innovative. And there he maybe started acting too naively....
Mrs Murray may have been misguided in this case, too, especially if it's true that she was not at all a trained psychiatric nurse but basicly just an ordinary housekeeper. Maybe Greenson said to her things that flattered her, and led in overtreating Marilyn, who wouldn't have needed such spying 24/7.

But all this doesn't necessarily mean at all that either of them had anything to do in killing Marilyn. Their behaviour was only such that it's easy to make also that kind of conclusion. mf_w00t1.gif
magda24
QUOTE(jonas @ May 9 2008, 01:42 AM) *
Good point abeautifulchild, but it doesn't seem to be standard procedure within the psychiatric "community". If that's right or wrong, I don't know. Though,it's interesting to verify that when it was first suspected that something might be wrong with Marilyn, Greenson was the first called to the scene. No family,no friends,no Jeanne Carmen-who was celebrating her 32nd birthday- no police and no ambulance. It was Greenson who was called! Thus, it seems as if Murray had some responding to do in relation to Greenson. A housekeeper to a psychiatrist. Could she have felt the same "obligation" to Greenson when Marilyn was still alive? If Greenson was her "confident", then most likely she revealed to him everything that went on at 12305 5th Helena Drive.

Or maybe Ms Murray was an old confused lady, who knew that Greenson was a friend of Marilyn's, lived nearby and had a medical knowledge? Maybe she just panicked? It not an easy position one can be- to find your employer dead and this employer happens to be the most fmous movie star ever?It's just we sometimes don't realise how irrational our behaviour can be when faced with extreme situation like this. We all think: I'd this and that but just imagine this shock she must have felt...But then there are also versions that the ambulance had been called earlier that night....
jonas
Magda 24, that ambulance driver could have been a deciding factor in all this. However, it's very hard to find information on him. I've seen an interview with him on a doc which was on youtube some time ago, but has since then been removed.In the Marilyn community, there are those who feel he can be trusted and those who think he was out trying to make a buck. So, I don't know what to think of him. Nevertheless, if he were still alive and if there was some way of us knowing for a fact that he was being honest, his testimony could at least tell us if Marilyn was still alive or not when the ambulance was called that night.
Margherita
I've seen that document on TV over 10 years ago, and in it he's about 70 so he would be 85 now, maybe he's alive. He sounds very credible in it, but who knows. He was in charge or a driver of the (alleged?) ambulance and it was The Schaefer Ambulance Co.
jonas
QUOTE(Ultraviolet @ May 15 2008, 08:23 PM) *
I've seen that document on TV over 10 years ago, and in it he's about 70 so he would be 85 now, maybe he's alive. He sounds very credible in it, but who knows. He was in charge or a driver of the (alleged?) ambulance and it was The Schaefer Ambulance Co.



Do you remember the name of the doc Ultraviolet? The one I saw was on "In Search Of".It was a show which tried to solve unsolved mysteries and was hosted by Leonard Nimoy(Mr.Spock).
Margherita
Sorry, Jonas, I can't remember it right away, but if I go to see my mother she might have some of the old docs in VHS-cassettes, so I can try to find something.
Marilyn Fanatic
QUOTE(Ultraviolet @ May 18 2008, 02:54 PM) *
Sorry, Jonas, I can't remember it right away, but if I go to see my mother she might have some of the old docs in VHS-cassettes, so I can try to find something.


If she has "Say Goodbye to the President", it's very informative and almost scary. There's
actual tape of Greenson commenting on her death. He says "I can't tell the whole story"
and "Ask Bobby Kennedy". There were a couple of other "frustrating" kind of
statements, but those two stand out. He sounds almost sincere, but his voice is creepy.
He certainly gave the impression it was because of ethics and confidentiality that he
couldn't talk. Not sure about laws in CA, but I am under the impression that, if they
know of a crime, they are required to break that confidential rule. I think murder would
fall into that category.

I think the ambulance driver is interviewed in that doc, too. I meant to say that first.
jonas
I've seen bits of "Say Goodbye To The President" Marilynfanatic but I didn't catch Greenson saying those words. However, I've read that he did utter them,and if so, why? If it's true that he actually did mention RFK, why would he? Was it because he "knew" RFK was insome sort of way responsible for her death? Did he feel that Marilyn's reasons for committing suicide or overdosing accidentally had something to do with RFK?
What'd be interesting to know is when it became public that Greenson made those comments. At the time Marilyn died,or one, two, three or more years later. Because,if he made those comments at the scene, then why didn't the police ask him to specify a bit more?
What was he trying to do...nail the Kennedys? Very strange!
collector
I don't think the Kennedys really cared all that much that MM was gonna squeal on them , they just considered her a "plaything" :(

I believe death by accident overdose.....unfortunately one cannot rule out foul play though.
abeautifulchild
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abeautifulchild
QUOTE(Ultraviolet @ May 9 2008, 12:24 PM) *
All that you've written makes sense; I think too that Greenson while treating Marilyn went over many limits, maybe he was even in love with her! And he really may have had some sort of rescue fantasy on her, allthough I don't believe the Spoto-books theory that he wanted to use Marilyn to raise his own career profile in Hollywood- I mean, what cold heartedness it would have been, to kill somebody to embetter one's own career, then he would have been a real criminal in this case; which is of course what many suggest.

banana.gif

About Greenson inviting Marilyn every day to a conversation session, dine with his family and all, I think it had quite a lot to do with all the 60's new ideas - getting rid of old ways to do things, being revolutionary and innovative. And there he maybe started acting too naively....
Mrs Murray may have been misguided in this case, too, especially if it's true that she was not at all a trained psychiatric nurse but basicly just an ordinary housekeeper. Maybe Greenson said to her things that flattered her, and led in overtreating Marilyn, who wouldn't have needed such spying 24/7.

But all this doesn't necessarily mean at all that either of them had anything to do in killing Marilyn. Their behaviour was only such that it's easy to make also that kind of conclusion.
mf_w00t1.gif


I agree. I did read that although she wasn't trained, Murray did this kind of work before though. Greenson put her there to make sure Marilyn didn't do anything self-destructive is my guess. And he probably wanted Eunice there as a "spy" (to be dramatic about it) so he could be informed of how Marilyn was doing. Of course it would look fishy to others if they didn't know of the reason why she was there.

It goes back to what Greenson himself said-
It was after Clark Gable died and he said he had to have nurses come in to check on Marilyn because she was so depressed he was afraid she might kill herself. This was happening before Murray came into her life.

I think that Greenson had Marilyn's best interests at heart & Murray was just another way to be sure of that.
It is easy to look at Murray and say that she looked 'creepy' and from there come to the conclusion that she was involved IF thats what you want to believe. But you can also try to remember that she was an old woman and probably harmless.

One more thing though: Marilyn seemed to be pretty independent in a lot of ways, and I'm surprised she agreed to let Murray come into her home. She was such a private person...
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