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Nina
I'm still wondering about Ralph Greenson.

He was the person, who have told the police (at first Clemmons) about the empty nembutal/chloral hydrat bottle/s and that she must have commited suicide.

But when John Miner interviewed Greenson a view days after the funeral, Greenson have told Miner, that he doesn't had the feeling, Marilyn took her own life.

How is that possible? What made him change his mind in only a view days? And why has he never told somebody about it?

There are so many unanswered questions (in a "so called closed case")

I will never believe that these are all just coincidences.

ohmy.gif
Paju
I never thought of that... I'm generally not very interested in MM's death, even though I'm curious sometimes.
But you're right: first he says she must have committed suicide, and then says he didn't have the feeling she was suicidal. Of course seeing empty pill bottles next to someone's bed makes you think that person must have taken them, even though the person doesn't seem suicidal. But still, I think there's more to Dr. Greenson than we know.
marilyns_firstkiss
well, i am not 100% sure i can believe what miner says,,but if someone could show me an article thats around the time of mm's death where he said that, then maybe i'll give it more thought..

soooooo, i have been asking alot of questions about her autopsy report...and some other questions that may seem stupid, but i think they could possibly fit in with the scenario. like ,,,for instance, i asked this before, but if eunice was mm's housekeeper why was m's room such a mess. secondly, m was expecting a new nightstand,(i think i read that it arrived the day after her death) anyhow, why would her nightstand be so cluttered with things....in the pics it looks like a real mess. pill bottles, tissues, papers...just a bunch of stuff...so, i am only speaking through my own experience, but if the nightstand was supposed to arrive so soon, i would have cleaned up the stuff to make it easier to put the new stand in...anyhow,,,,,i just wonder if there was a big cleanup after her death, and whoever did kinda wrecked the place. also, i think the pill botttles were planned out to look that way.....i could believe that she did take her own life, but there are simple questions that have no answers..things just don't add up!

also, i will post this again, as it is about greenson.


Did they test the rest of the organs?

Thomas Noguchi {coroner} sent the blood, liver, kidney, stomach and contents, urine and intestine to
Raymond Abernathy {head toxicologist of LA county} for testing. This was done under the supervision of
Theodore Curphy {chief medical examiner of LA county}. In the digestive system, only the stomach and
upper part of the small intestine were tested for drugs. No traces were found so Abernathy didn't test any
further for drugs taken orally. Noguchi asked again for further tests but the organs had already been
thrown away. If the lower part of the small intestine showed no traces of orally taken drugs then the next
place to look was the kidney which is where unused orally taken drugs would have ended up. This would
be the final part of the chain before leaving the body in the urine or feces. If no traces were found in the
kidneys then it would prove Marilyn did not take any oral drugs.

Would Abernathy have any reason to hide this fact?
All of the toxicology tests were performed at UCLA Medical Center. Both Abernathy and Dr. Greenson
were on the board there. Dr. Greenson was the last doctor to see Marilyn and admitted to giving her
sedatives. If no orally consumed drugs were found then Dr. Greenson would have been implicated.

Lauren Michele
bye1.gif Hi Erin, i remember you asking before in regards to why would Marilyn's room be such a mess when she had Eunice. I can only speculate that Marilyn didn't want Eunice to fuss with her room, perhaps she wanted things left as they were? Privacy reasons.

About the pill bottles and mess all over Marilyn's night stand. You and i may disagree how she died so this may not answer your question. I don't think Marilyn was in her right frame of mind and the last thought she would have would be to clean off her nightstand that night. bye1.gif
marilyns_firstkiss
i would think that too because of it being a probable suicide. but from what i have read before, mm was basically working on her garden that day,,,,,,and at around 7:30 pm she had a conversation with joe jr,,,which he said she was in good spirits.. then at around 10:30 that night there was a call to jacobs stating she was dead...what could have possibly gone wrong in those 3 hrs? its so frustrating!!!!! no.gif
Nina
Maybe Marilyn didn't wanted that Eunice cleaned her bedroom.

And the nighttable... I think, she didn't know the exact date, when the nighttable would arrive. And when she knew it maybe she simple hadn't any time to arrange it for the upcoming delivery of the table.

And about Miner. Miner had told in the 70's about that he had a strange feeling about the purple discoloration on the colon. He was there at the autopsy and he wrote a memo to Dr. Curphey about his interview with Greenson but Curphey never used the information, Miner gave him because it haven't fit with his suicide story. More over, the Miner memos never get it to her files. They've been lost - as so many other things...
Tara
I think it's possible that Greenson did talk with Miner. But, I've never really been sure about Miner and the alleged tapes. So, I find it hard to believe everything he says - but still, he was involved in the case from the start, so the points he raised must be addressed.
Nina
I'm pretty sure that Miner talked with Greenson. Greenson refused to talk like many other people too. Miner had promised Greenson not to talk about the tapes but because some authors made a murder out of Greenson, Miner asked Greensons wife Hildi if he could talk about it to defend Greenson. It was always Miner, who questioned the purple colorization of the colon and that Nogushi hadn't checked on a little bruise on her left back. Miner was there from the beginning - he had in my eyes no reason for getting some attention.

Also remember, that Miner knew Greeenson. This was why Dr. Curphey choose him to talk with Greenson.

bye1.gif
Tara
Thanks Nina, and I do accept that Miner knew Greenson. Though I have some serious misgivings about the way Miner has released information, I do think he is worth listening to - if only because he is one of the few people left who was involved in the case from the start. I always like hearing your opinions because you're very well-informed on this subject. bye1.gif
marilyns_firstkiss
now thats interesting! another person who knew greenson personally. it seems like everyone surrounding marilyn, even after her death was some how linked to good ol' ralphy boy! ohmy.gif ohmy.gif ohmy.gif
marilyns_firstkiss
QUOTE(Nina @ Sep 12 2006, 09:03 PM) [snapback]114734[/snapback]
And the nighttable... I think, she didn't know the exact date, when the nighttable would arrive. And when she knew it maybe she simple hadn't any time to arrange it for the upcoming delivery of the table.



hey nina! i read in eunice murrays interview, on the dd group site, that the table arrived that day....just thought i would let ya know. i am surprised she would not have put it in her room..and cleaned of that old dang nightstand..!!
Nina
wow Erin, thanks so much for that. I must have overseen that. Well, I think she hadn't much time that day or it came always something between it...

bye1.gif
MarilynMonroeFan86
In the book the DD Group by David Marshall it is stated that Greenson said "I cant explain myself or defend myself without revealing things I dont want to reveal. You cant draw a line and say ill tell you this but I wont tell you that, its a terrible position to be in to have to say I cant talk about it because I cant tell the whole story. Listen ... talk to Bobby Kennedy."

Do you think he is implying that Bobby Kennedy did indeed have something to do with Marilyn Monroe's death? Whether it was directly involved or indirectly?
Tara
It's hard to say because it seems to me like Greenson is giving nothing away here. He could have said 'ask Bobby' because he wanted to shift attention from himself to someone else. Or else he could have believed that Bobby knew something about why Marilyn died. Obviously, Greenson was under pressure when he made this statement - being questioned by police. So it's hard to know what he really meant by it.
Lauren Michele
Perhaps Bobby told Marilyn something she did not want hear. Something in the line of a break it off conversation and it pushed Marilyn over the edge. I am just speculating of course. Maybe Greenson new of this information and he could not come forward with it. Maybe this doesn't make sense. I need to have more knowledge on this subject.
Tara
I agree with you Lauren. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. bye1.gif
rose
QUOTE(MarilynMonroeFan86 @ Sep 19 2006, 06:46 PM) [snapback]115409[/snapback]
In the book the DD Group by David Marshall it is stated that Greenson said "I cant explain myself or defend myself without revealing things I dont want to reveal. You cant draw a line and say ill tell you this but I wont tell you that, its a terrible position to be in to have to say I cant talk about it because I cant tell the whole story. Listen ... talk to Bobby Kennedy."

Do you think he is implying that Bobby Kennedy did indeed have something to do with Marilyn Monroe's death? Whether it was directly involved or indirectly?


I have never heard of this.How very interesting and very mysterious comment.I wonder what he ment by it...
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(Paju @ Sep 12 2006, 02:23 PM) [snapback]114717[/snapback]
I never thought of that... I'm generally not very interested in MM's death, even though I'm curious sometimes.
But you're right: first he says she must have committed suicide, and then says he didn't have the feeling she was suicidal. Of course seeing empty pill bottles next to someone's bed makes you think that person must have taken them, even though the person doesn't seem suicidal. But still, I think there's more to Dr. Greenson than we know.


I so agree with you Paju. First off, i beleive Dr. Greenson knows everything on August 5th. Just MO. Also, i agree with you that a suicidal person can act rather "giddy" or elated, on the same day that he or she commits suicide. Suicidal people can fool their own doctors that they are fine and the doctor beleives the patient. I am not just talking about Marilyn's case. I have learned here that Dr. Greenson was really of no help for Marilyn and may have made her worse off. throb.gif
marilyns_firstkiss
first off, sorry if this doesn't necessarily go with the topic but i figured something out recently. and this concludes me to think marilyn felt like poo the day she died. as we all know, marilyn suffered from endometriosis which caused her great pain during menstruation. well,,,,,in her autopsy it shows marilyns ovaries basically hemorraged(don't know all the scientific mumbo jumbo right off the top of my head), which means she just had her period. now the problem here is that nembutal increases pain, and chloral hydrate can actually decrease it( which i think they use it while performing surgery).
so my question is why would marilyn take a bunch of nembutal if she was on her period, with her knowledge of pharmaceuticals. i believe she took some of the CH,,,but i am still not positive where something like 60 or more nembutals came in the picture???????
Paju
Hey, that's very interesting Erin Marie. I didn't know about Nembutal increasing pain and chloral hydrate decreasing it.
And Lauren Michele, I agree with you, I think Dr. Greenson knew a lot about what went on that day.
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(marilyns_firstkiss @ Nov 2 2006, 11:33 AM) [snapback]119271[/snapback]
first off, sorry if this doesn't necessarily go with the topic but i figured something out recently. and this concludes me to think marilyn felt like poo the day she died. as we all know, marilyn suffered from endometriosis which caused her great pain during menstruation. well,,,,,in her autopsy it shows marilyns ovaries basically hemorraged(don't know all the scientific mumbo jumbo right off the top of my head), which means she just had her period. now the problem here is that nembutal increases pain, and chloral hydrate can actually decrease it( which i think they use it while performing surgery).
so my question is why would marilyn take a bunch of nembutal if she was on her period, with her knowledge of pharmaceuticals. i believe she took some of the CH,,,but i am still not positive where something like 60 or more nembutals came in the picture???????



Erin thank you for all of your knowledge. It makes me wonder also why Marilyn would take Nembutal if it increased pain. I sure hope someone explained that to her at the time. Perhaps she just needed drugs so badly, sad as it is, that she endured the pain to just be able to take drugs. And i love her. I hope that i am wrong. But that is a drug addicts behavior to a T.
Tara
The Nembutal was for insomnia, and Dr Engleberg had prescribed Nembutal the previous day. Whether this was the cause of the overdose is unclear, though. The jar was found empty, but we can't automatically assume she took those pills. The last time she spoke to Dr Greenson, she asked where her Nembutal was.

I don't know if in 1962, doctors were so aware that Nembutal increased pain. It does seem that doctors then weren't so aware of the dangers of these drugs, the side-effects and risk of addiction. Certainly there is ample room for criticism regarding the way Marilyn was treated.
Lauren Michele
Yes, Marilyn was on Nembutal for suffering insomnia. What i did not know was that it increased pain for her, or anyone on this drug for that matter. What is really bothersome is not only back in 1962 perhaps Doctors did not know all of the side effects of medications but it still continues today.

I was unaware of Nembutal being addictive. Some people take more of their medications just for the sake of taking more, to numb away emotional pain. Poor Marilyn was giving herself more physical pain.

I ask questions to my psychiatrist regarding side effects and she has to honestly tell me she doesn't know. So i must do my own research, in the year 2006.
Tara
Nembutal (or Pentobarbital) is a barbiturate. It is also a depressant. Barbiturates are addictive, and Marilyn had been using them for years.
marilyns_firstkiss
i tend to think she was weaning herself from the nembutal,,especially with englebergs shots. i mean, 25 pills were the prescription,,,and thats not alot if you're an addict. also, if marilyn was menstruating, she may have taken chloral hydrate(for pain), and ofcourse she took the one phenergen pill, which has side effects such as slurring words and drowsiness. anyway, i tend to believe she didn't take those pills(nembutal) but she had them on hand for withdrawal symptoms. now if i could pinpoint how the nembutal got into her system. though i have my ideas.
Tara
I also believe that Marilyn was trying to wean herself pills. By summer of 1962, I think she realised how important it was for her to beat the addiction. Though clearly she was slipping at times, having nearly overdosed a week before at Cal-Neva.

And I agree that the Nembutal prescription was most likely for backup only. Of course it's possible that she didn't take the pills at all, and the Nembutal in her system came from another source (ie the enema theory.)
Lauren Michele
QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Nov 2 2006, 05:10 PM) [snapback]119294[/snapback]
Erin thank you for all of your knowledge. It makes me wonder also why Marilyn would take Nembutal if it increased pain. I sure hope someone explained that to her at the time. Perhaps she just needed drugs so badly, sad as it is, that she endured the pain to just be able to take drugs. And i love her. I hope that i am wrong. But that is a drug addicts behavior to a T.



I am quoting my own quote because i reread it and i realized i said "i wonder why Marilyn would take Nembutal.." Well, obviously it was prescribed to her for a reason and i feel stupid. I want to make my message a little more clear by saying instead of "perhaps" but 'yes', Marilyn felt she needed to take these meds that were prescribed to her and i have since learned were also highly addictive. Marilyn's body probably too became more tolerant of all her meds and she felt as though she needed to take more. And doctors will up dosages because they know the body becomes tolerant after time. Or adds more drugs on top of the drugs you are already taking. It is so freakin' sad. Also, us patients, (hush) do take an extra pill here and there because of being on it so long, i can speak for myself and sometimes i feel like i did not take my regular dosage for which i did.
marilyns_firstkiss
QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Nov 5 2006, 06:02 AM) [snapback]119457[/snapback]
I am quoting my own quote because i reread it and i realized i said "i wonder why Marilyn would take Nembutal.." Well, obviously it was prescribed to her for a reason and i feel stupid. I want to make my message a little more clear by saying instead of "perhaps" but 'yes', Marilyn felt she needed to take these meds that were prescribed to her and i have since learned were also highly addictive. Marilyn's body probably too became more tolerant of all her meds and she felt as though she needed to take more. And doctors will up dosages because they know the body becomes tolerant after time. Or adds more drugs on top of the drugs you are already taking. It is so freakin' sad. Also, us patients, (hush) do take an extra pill here and there because of being on it so long, i can speak for myself and sometimes i feel like i did not take my regular dosage for which i did.


yes a patient may accidentally or on purpose take an extra pill, but 60 pills? i don't buy it...or i will go with noguchi's results and say 47 pills..either way it doesn't make sense. and yes nembutal is addictive, but so is heroin ..and people can kick the habit.. often by substituting methadone until they can get completely clean. granted once you're an addict you are always in recovery...i think marilyn was substituting and lowering her doses. tara can probably confirm this for me but i don't think marilyn was prescribed any nembutal in june or july. it was not until aug 3 she had a prescription for a mere 25 pills. i believe this is because of the injections given from engleberg and he could not be there later with injections due to marital problems.
also to address the cal neva weekend. i remember on the dd group someone said they had spoken to buddy greco and he said marilyn tried to commit suicide. i wonder if marilyn got really drunk(as you can see her with champagne in almost every picture) and took her normal amount of pills...which she would take ch's through out the day. maybe she just got shit faced, vomited and passed out, and everyone thought she was overdosing......eh? it could be a possibility.

btw, lauren, i read my response and i hope i didn't sound mean...just trying to make a point...you know i think you're a sweetheart! marilynbybrandon_190.gif
Lauren Michele
bye1.gif Thanks for the information again Erin. No way did you sound mean to me but thank you for caring throb.gif marilynbybrandon_190.gif
Tara
Marilyn was withdrawing from Nembutal during her final summer, under the care of her doctors. She had been addicted to Nembutal and other barbs for several years, and was trying to break the habit for good. She had switched to Chloral Hydrate as her main sedative. However she was still getting 'hot shots' from Dr Engleberg - he claimed they were liver shots to build up her vitamin stores, depleted by her ongoing sinusitis. But actually they seemed to have a 'knockout' effect. Some have speculated that these shots were a combination of sedative drugs. It's possible that she was being given lower doses of Nembutal, to stave off severe withdrawal symptoms. Marilyn received an injection from him on Friday, August 3rd, the day before she died. She was also given the jar of Nembutal for emergencies only. Norman Rosten spoke to her on the phone shortly after, and thought she sounded happy, but a little breathless and high.
Fav
I thought I would join in on this debate. I'm not usually one to post too much in this section but felt compelled to after reading Donald Spoto's book. In the past I have noted that several of you have said that the Spoto book is most likely the most (as it can be) reliable biography of her out there. Shame on me, but I just got around to finishing the book and it has made me seriously think about what happened at the end of her life and the part in which Ralph Greenson and his/Marilyn's employee actually played in it.

Never before have I read a book that implicated Mr Greenson so much in her death. If the book is to be believed he had an incredibly sinister hold over Marilyn and Eunice Murray was his infiltrator who was with Marilyn as his spy during the day. Greesnon appeared to have had major personailty issues and would take part in countertransference with his patients and get too emotionally involved in their cases. I am sure the majority of you have read it, but between him and Dr Engelberg who gave her the 'hotshots' mentioned earlier, they were dosing her up to the eyeballs. Not to mention other doctors. It is the belief of Spoto that on the day she died (which it was said was Eunice Murray's last day in her employ, and possibly a day that she had been talking about ending things with Greenson - summised by his seriously long therapy sessions with her that day), that Greenson could not summon Engleberg to come and give her a hotshot to calm her down so he had to give her the medication himself. As he was not a medical practitioner as such, he did not administer it himself. Instead he got Eunice Murray to administer it as she masqueraded as nurse of sorts, but had never had any medical training. And how did Spoto say it was administered? By enema. MM was used to having them but, having no knowledge of such things, how do you adminster a drug by enema ie would he have likely had them with him, sent someone out to get them, Marilyn already have them? The book does not address this. Very well written otherwise, the book does not accuse Greenson or Murray of murder but it does accuse them of being ignorant to what they were doing and gently pushing her body over the edge to overdose without them knowing it. It seemed entirely plausible that this could have been what happened. He backed it up with several pieces of evidence including that her colon was very purplish and discoloured and with the fact that Murray was found washing the sheets that evening when the police arrived. Which no doubt she would have needed to do if the sheets had been soiled due to the enema.

The book was interesting in the fact that it looked at everything from a completly different viewpoint including what actually happened during her death. I've heard the tape of Ralph Greenson saying one of the earlier mentioned quotes about 'talk to Bobby Kennedy'. Greenson was very clever if this book is to be believed. Clever enough to know how to manipulate and control people - including Marilyn and Eunice. Maybe by using Bobby Kennedy's name he was trying to throw people off the scent. Who knows. One thing is for sure, Donald Spoto does make a good case for Greenson and Murray being responsible unwittingly for the end to Marilyn's life.

If anyone has any thoughts on his theory it would be very interesting to hear them.
Margherita
It's possible that Spoto has it correct, but I can't but wonder, why has it been so necessary to hide what happened all the way till these days, when Greenson has now been dead for 28 years and also Eunice Murray is dead.

If all that happened what Spoto explains in his book, it's certain that somebodies have found it out and speculated allready years ago.
So whom or who are they trying to protect by not revealing that Marilyn's legendary and mystific death was in fact a gross medical error?

Revealing this fact would pure a lot of the reputation of the Kennedys, and many other official bodies of that time.

How come knowbody came to think about it while Greenson was alive? He died -79.

Shirley
Hello, everyone!
Does anyone of you has this article which says that it was Greenson who killed Marilyn? I once read it somewhere...It woul be nice if someone could post it here.
nzmermaid


I would also like to add that in the Sidney Guilaroff autobiography, which some people think may be unreliable, his impression of Greenson is very negative. He also adds that Marilyn was thinking of telling of her affair with both of the Kennedy boys, as another contributor.
TheDuke
I still remember the day that magazine came out, I bought it to find out the big news.

I remember I laughed so hard some pee came out.
nzmermaid
Which bit was funny, TheDuke?
liza
Well...... why did the police nothing after this article?????.
And "Duke" why did you laugh about this?.
It can be true and I myself think it is possible that this really happened that horibble night in 1962.
Why otherwise did Eunice AND Greenson lied about all the facts for so many years.
A well, let we all believe what we believe it is not changing anything now.

nzmermaid
I think it is a plausible explanation. It explains a lot of things. This article did slip under the radar, being an "exclusive" in Australia and may have been printed a year or two after the actual deathbed confession. Author Anthony Summers had never heard about this and was VERY interested and did some research straight away (I had emailed him about it). He said he found no death certificate for Eunice Murray, which is quite a mystery.
jennie2000
Thank you for the article Pauline!
It's a lot like what I thought happened, but I have to agree a bit with Stephen too,
deathbed confessions to half-strangers, hmmm...
Apart from that, he seems to have known what he was talking about.
jennie2000
I don't actually believe Greenson killed her deliberately,
but I think someone else (a doctor, or Eunice) distributed the drugs that killed her.
Of course, aliens could also have given them to her, what do we know.
I just don't believe she took the drugs herself.

Margherita
QUOTE(jennie2000 @ Nov 1 2007, 03:40 PM) *
Thank you for the article Pauline!
It's a lot like what I thought happened, but I have to agree a bit with Stephen too,
deathbed confessions to half-strangers, hmmm...
Apart from that, he seems to have known what he was talking about.



Yes, but the point is not whether Dr. Greenson made a deathbed confession or not, the point is that the investigators should have found that kind of truth before his confessions, and I'm sure there has been a lot of them.
And besides, if Greenson's confession is accurate, it's not relevant to which paper or magazine it was given. Sometimes the truth comes out from somewhere else than "a reliable source".

So....Greenson held the truth inside hime for 17 years and during that time nobody figured out anything like that had happened? Not even to give an interview of his/her own suspicions, even in an obscure small magazine somewhere ? Maybe.

But Greenson has been dead now for 28 years.So does it mean that nobody (besides us) isn't anymore interested in putting things in correct order about the happenings evening/morning august -62?
Are they all dead?

Has Anthony Summers written anything about this, if he was so interested?

Like I previously wrote, doing a proper research on whether M:s death could have indeed been an accident would do justice to many. So why isn't it done?
Who is there to protect?
nzmermaid
Summers said he could be keen to write another book on Marilyn, but is busy doing one about 9/11 right now.
Fav
QUOTE(TheDuke @ Nov 7 2007, 11:56 PM) *
I thought Donald Spoto did a fine job explaining what happened. I accept criminal incompetence from Ralph Greenson a lot more readily than I do the Kennedy's getting a wetworks team to kill Marilyn.


Yes, that or the mafia. Hmm. Who knows what happened but the Spoto theory makes sense.
Margherita
Yes, definitely the Spoto theory makes sense adjusted to the scene by known details (but of course afterwards one can't know all of them).

But has Spoto done enough research on the reason behind the possible murder? I can't believe this "Greenson was mad" thing.

"Search for the motive", is what they often say when somebody is being killed, and I think too many bodies or individuals had too much practical use for killing Marilyn, so I'm sure they at least planned that. Why shouldn't they? There was allready at that time an elimination plan against Kennedy. Marilyn was a hell of a good chip.

It's possible, and I think likely, that her house was bugged, but maybe this accident by Greenson, Murray or somebody else happenedto come in the way.

It could have been for instance this way: Earlier that evening M. took some Nembutals or other sedatives, maybe quite a lot, but not enough to kill her because of her tolerance. She phoned Joe Maggio Jr, sounded bright and so before 8.00 pm.

Then something happened. What was it? What happened? Did she get suddenly terribly suicidal? Why would she have had to call doctor Greenson at all by the way, if she was in a good mood? I don't believe in the Peter Lawford phonecall and Marilyn sentimental (quite obviously afterwards fabricated) farewell message:...say goodbye to yourself cause you're a good guy...and that bullshit, -

so...like some witnesses told, during this time they saw "a person with a doctors medical bag entering the house". Who was this person? It was well before midnight, so it couldn't have been Greenson.
Well, my suggestion is that it was a person who was going to give Marilyn properly something so that she would either be on the edge of dying or at least totally blasted, before R. Kennedy arrived, which they knew (after having eavesdropped) would happen soon. Or at least he would be informed that Marilyn is in a lousy or terrible condition and he did arrive indeed.

Many of the neighbours heard afterwards the clapping of the helicopter around the area; that was Kennedy hurrying away from the scene.

Anyway, Marilyn maybe didn't react to enema or shot or what ever she was given the way they thought but instead got paradoxically (a typical pharmaceutical reaction in case of drug addicts) very nervous and blasted and mixed and got some sort of a fit, maybe shouted and threw things towards Kennedy, (there are memories about this kind of thing too in a book I read), Kennedy had to try to calm her down, maybe threw her towards some furniture, Marilyn had a big bruise on her hip noticed afterwards.
Maybe Kennedy called Greenson and as Greenson didn't know of all of these drugs together by then, he gave Marilyn a strong sedative, and that was it.

This is one theory. doh.gif
Mezzo
I just bought the book, Hollywood on the Couch: A Candid Look at the Overheated Love Affair Between Psychiatrists and Moviemakers, which has a brief section on Marilyn's therapy with Greenson. There were no photos in the book, and there wasn't much new information. The authors did present the possibility that a chloral hydrate enema, administered (and bungled) by Eunice Murray at Greenson's direction, could have been what killed Marilyn. The book also mentioned that Greenson told his wife, Hildi, that he involved Marilyn with their family because he needed to make her a whole person before he could help her in therapy. The authors also stated that Greenson began to schedule Marilyn as his last patient of the day and to stay for dinner with his family when she left a therapy session by cab and invited the cab driver into her apartment with her when she arrived home.
I didn't know that Greenson was a showman. This was mentioned several times, along with the notion that Greenson approached Leo Rosten more than once with movie ideas that never came to fruition.
There was no mention that Greenson worked in conjunction with the studios in an effort to frame Marilyn and collect on the insurance policies for SGTG, as has recently been discussed by members on ES. The book did, however, say that Marilyn's mental state during the last years of her life required treatment by her doctors Hohenberg, Kris and Greenson at the studio's behest so that she might be able to complete her movies.
Alanma
Ultraviolet,

"Many of the neighbours heard afterwards the clapping of the helicopter around the area; that was Kennedy hurrying away from the scene."

I can never remember references I read a while ago, but did read somewhere that a local traffic cop pulled up a car being recklessly driven away from the scene. He "booked" the driver and passengers; Robert Kennedy and Peter Lawford.
Italia
Honestly, the theory of the Mafia is literally ridiculous, like the red diary.
rolleyes1.gif
Margherita
Why do you think they are "literally" ridiculous ? If it just happened so ?

Well, personally, I don't much believe that the mafia killed her, even Sam Giancana's daughter said in her memoirs that it was from the beginning when Marilyn died, a well known thing that mafia did not kill her, particularly Giancana not, and she said also something like "the claim that my father had had her murdered was part of the cover-up, to lay disinformation over what had happened, to make it seem like something else" (than what it was) - That was about the content.

The red diary - I think it probably did exist - This Robert Slatzer who wrote a lot about it most probably was a fraud, an unbalanced person - but..., he got a lot of information about details of Marilyn's last days and contacts from somewhere . - And in the process of doing so, he got carried away with long-time obsession Marilyn, and couldn't help resist to tell that they had been close friends, which of cause was not true. About the 3 days lasting marriage, I think it is possible.
And where did he get his information of Marilyn ? It's for years been assumed that he invented stories himself, but I'm not sure.
And there were others too that told about the red diary, years before Slatzer.
Besides a diary, a lot of people told that Marilyn wrote a lot of notes of people and things - fragments ?
Whether red or green , diary or just a notebook, who cares, she did it anyway.
Italia
I personally do not believe a word Slatzer Robert wrote or Norman Mailer, I believe that 98% of all books on Marilyn are just a way to make money and to continue the myth of her mysterious death. I think it is much easier, and good books can be counted on fingers, Spoto has done the best biography of Marilyn along with Michelle Morgan .. I believe that her death was an accident, I believe that no one wanted her dead and I think she wanted to instill even die. I think it was an accident, perhaps you have taken too many pills or maybe Greenson has done something. However, I do not think it the Mafia being the red diary it to the history of the Kennedys. the end coolio.gif
a monroeist
speaking of a motive - only the Fox managers had a motive - money they got from insurance companies for Marilyn's death - is fecit cui prodest
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