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Everlasting Star Community _ General discussion _ How do you think Marilyn died?

Posted by: mels Jul 6 2004, 10:43 PM

Here we go...

Let's open the debate regarding Marilyn's death. Before entering into details in long theories, let's see what you all think!

I'm voting for "accidental". I still have to study carefully the corrolation between her autopsy and what we know about her medication, but I do think there was an uncompatibily between several of her treatments or that her body rejected the mix between to medications.

Posted by: ilikeithot Jul 7 2004, 03:21 AM

Iīm going with accidental too, Mels. I believe it was accidental on her part though and someoneīs negligence helped her untimely death. unsure.gif

You can see a little topic about this http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/index.php?showtopic=5872&st=0&#entry56631

Posted by: Lorraine Jul 7 2004, 09:58 AM

Mmmmmm,i suppose i am not entirely sure,but it was strange how Marilyn was found in the postion she was found in on the bed stretched out with her hand on the phone,almost like she was placed that way.....but we will never know.God Bless her

Posted by: MM_Yvonne Jul 7 2004, 10:03 AM

yeah...i agree with you all....i know this sound horrible, but in a way it`s sort of good that she died...cuz if she was still alive, i don`t think she would have had so many fans.....i mean look at liz taylor...don`t think she has fans like us...but any way...that`s just my opinion

Posted by: Val Jul 7 2004, 01:17 PM

QUOTE(MM_Yvonne @ Jul 7 2004, 11:03 AM)
yeah...i agree with you all....i know this sound horrible, but in a way it`s sort of good that she died...cuz if she was still alive, i don`t think she would have had so many fans.....i mean look at liz taylor...don`t think she has fans like us...but any way...that`s just my opinion
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It does sound horrible. I'm pretty sure you didn't phrase this the way you wanted to. I mean who cares about the fans if they're dead
cry.gif It's a very high price to pay. Go ask Liz Taylor if she rather be alive or be dead but considered as a myth.

Posted by: MM_Yvonne Jul 7 2004, 03:49 PM

i don`t mean it like that Val...but i don`t know how TO put it so that you`ll understand....I`m sorry

Posted by: MM_Yvonne Jul 7 2004, 03:50 PM

oh man! now i feel like such a terreble person!

Posted by: Val Jul 7 2004, 04:28 PM

QUOTE(MM_Yvonne @ Jul 7 2004, 04:50 PM)
oh man! now i feel like such a terreble person!
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Don't feel that terrible. I wrote above that I was sure you did not phrase that concept the way you wanted. I figured out you did not really mean it.

Posted by: MM_Yvonne Jul 7 2004, 04:44 PM

yeah, exacly<----don`t know how you write that) did not mean it like the way it sounds.

Posted by: Celia Jul 8 2004, 07:36 PM

I used to think she was murdered but Iīm not sure now,so Iīve voted accidental.
I just doubt that the Kennedys killed her.
I strongly believe there was a cover up, but I think that there was a reason for it: They had to allow time to remove all things liking Marilyn and the kennedys if itīs true that they were having a relationship.

Posted by: angelxwingz Jul 13 2004, 06:24 PM

QUOTE(MM_Yvonne @ Jul 7 2004, 10:03 AM)
yeah...i agree with you all....i know this sound horrible, but in a way it`s sort of good that she died...cuz if she was still alive, i don`t think she would have had so many fans.....i mean look at liz taylor...don`t think she has fans like us...but any way...that`s just my opinion
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I know exactly what you mean. Would her legend have grown if she did not met such a sudden tragic, and untimely death? I think the reason alot of her fans became attracted to her was because of her death, in some sort of weird way. When people die they all of a sudden become legends, even though Marilyn was a living legend. I would have loved to see her live longer to see what she had in store for us, but in a way its better she died young so we will always remember her in her youth and as beautiful. Only the good die young.

As for me, I believe she was murdered. I did a paper on it in school that was 15 pages of pure fact surrounding her affairs with John and Bobby. I believe they were the ones responsible for it, but I wont go into it right now.

Posted by: Celia Jul 13 2004, 07:10 PM

I agree with you. She wouldnīt have been sooooo famous.
However I think she would have been as famous as Greta Garbo , Clark Gable
or Charles Chaplin. And they are all great legends.
Elisabeth Taylor, whom someone mentioned above, is not that great for me.
I think she was never at Marilynīs level , maybe Iīm wrong, but I also heard that Taylor was a
bit angry because they called her a legend and not a myth like Marilyn. But I think thatīs exactly the difference.

Posted by: Val Jul 13 2004, 07:23 PM

I don't know. The first time I saw Marilyn on the screen - and was immediately fascinated - I did not even know she was dead. So that can be true but it is not true for me.

Posted by: Meikkuli Jul 13 2004, 08:51 PM

QUOTE(Val @ Jul 13 2004, 07:23 PM)
I don't know. The first time I saw Marilyn on the screen - and was immediately fascinated - I did not even know she was dead. So that can be true but it is not true for me.
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I totally agree. I think she had something - what they call flesh impact -that no one (at least to me) never had before nor after. (They said Garbo did, but I never liked her...) I donīt know any other actress who just glows, you know...and you cannot look at anyone else when she is on screen. Her image on screen was magical, mystical, bigger than life.
As for the topic...I also voted accidental. Of course, no one can know for sure. But at the moment it is the most plausible explanation to me. However, I do believe there was cover-up afterwards, otherwise all the discrepancies would be hard to explain. Whether she accidentally overdosed it or it was her doctorīs fault I havenīt made up my mind.

Posted by: Val Jul 13 2004, 10:14 PM

QUOTE(Meikkuli @ Jul 13 2004, 09:51 PM)
QUOTE(Val @ Jul 13 2004, 07:23 PM)
I don't know. The first time I saw Marilyn on the screen - and was immediately fascinated - I did not even know she was dead. So that can be true but it is not true for me.
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I totally agree. I think she had something - what they call flesh impact -that no one (at least to me) never had before nor after. (They said Garbo did, but I never liked her...) I donīt know any other actress who just glows, you know...and you cannot look at anyone else when she is on screen. Her image on screen was magical, mystical, bigger than life.
As for the topic...I also voted accidental. Of course, no one can know for sure. But at the moment it is the most plausible explanation to me. However, I do believe there was cover-up afterwards, otherwise all the discrepancies would be hard to explain. Whether she accidentally overdosed it or it was her doctorīs fault I havenīt made up my mind.
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I beleive - admitting it was an accident - that it was both her responsibility (she was not stupid and was certainly aware that the large amount of psych drugs she was taking could do no good in the end) and her doctor's too who mishandled her completly.

Posted by: Fav Jul 15 2004, 08:18 PM

I voted for accidental death. Though it is documented she tried to kill herself on numerous occasions - they were cries for help but no-one heard those cries on this occasion. Also, maybe I like to believe the best of people and not in 'the evil that men do' ie she wasn't murdered by someone though sometimes the truth can be stranger than fiction.

Posted by: linkeando Jul 16 2004, 12:03 PM

i voted wrong medication because i believe in the Spotoīs theory

Posted by: chickeyonthego Jul 21 2004, 11:02 AM

I agree with Jeannette.
I think it was a wrong mixture of medication because he doctors didn't know what the other had given her.
I think it was accidental, and Spoto does a nice job of presenting that opinion.
I also belive that there was a clean-up by her doctors and Mrs. Murray of the
death scene and a cover-up by the Kennedy associates of any items that might
prove embarrassing to the Kennedys.

Posted by: Celia Jul 22 2004, 07:41 PM

Hi Stacy!! Hope you are fine!
Do you really think that Mrs Murray actually applied the enema? As Spoto puts it?
I used to believe it but I changed my mind when someone told me that Spoto is someway related to the kennedys and that he was taken to court for what he said about other writers and lost the trial.
Honestly, I donīt know what to think. I wish the case were reopened so that we could finnally know the truth angry.gif

Posted by: breathein Jul 22 2004, 11:28 PM

for now i think it's accidental, but you never know...

Posted by: moglet Jul 26 2004, 07:44 PM

i think it was accidental, i think she felt depressed and took quite a lot of pills then she forgot how many she had and took some more, but only god knows ...

Posted by: MarilynForever86 Jul 31 2004, 04:11 AM

I believe that it was semi-accidental-overdose-meaning she obviously must have either thought the pills wouldnt kill her or kill her so fast and thought she would be saved. I believe that no one could save her in time-I'm saying this because she tried to "do away with herself" and someone was able to get her in time...

Posted by: MarilynForever86 Jul 31 2004, 04:11 AM

I wish she left a note, or an indication. What I do know is that we will never know..and perhaps thats for the best.

Posted by: Tamara Aug 5 2004, 07:58 PM

I have put other because i am really not sure what i think, i think my opinion changes sometimes, i really do not know what to think.

Posted by: Nina Sep 15 2004, 08:59 PM

I do believe she was murdered and voted so. It was for sure a cover up and it had to do with the Kennedys. For me there was never a real investigation of her death. Maybe she had a disapointment with RFK and it was really something dirty and he wanted to calm her down and he hit her and she fall down and was death because of a broken back of the neck. I just said this (it could be so or not like 1000 other things could have been - everything are "could have been theories") but what I want to say is that the causes of her death are never cleared, they have never been researched well... to tell the world she had commited suicide was the "easiest way" to find a story in 3 or 4 hours... the autopsy didn't proofed the pill theorie but couldn't gave another solution either (or they didn't wanted)...

And really, why did the FBI still make files when books (*l laugh.gif l*) have been published more than 20years after her death? Don't they have other (more important) things to do?

JMO

Posted by: SugarKane69 Sep 16 2004, 02:17 AM

niagarasing.gif maybe she accidently overdosed, not knowing how many pills she was taking, maybe in a state of panic, or sadness, she unknowingly took too many pills, thats just one theory.... that poor beautiful woman, her life so tragic, just right out of shakespere. i just adore her so much..... niagarasing.gif



"Creativity has got to start with humanity and when you're a human being, you feel, you suffer"-M.monroe.

 

Posted by: mels Sep 16 2004, 10:34 PM

QUOTE(Nina @ Sep 15 2004, 09:59 PM)
the autopsy didn't proofed the pill theorie but couldn't gave another solution either (or they didn't wanted)...
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While I don't believe that she was murdered, I completly respect your opinion, but I have to disagree with this part of your post. The autopsy DID confirm that she died of an overdose. What the autopsy fails to demonstrate is how she overdosed, and that's where the whole controversy lies.
In a nutshell, what people question is the "probable suicide" conclusion made by what I call the "investigation squad" which includes the coroner and his office, as well as the suicide prevention team who investigated Marilyn's psychological condition at the moment of her death.

All acceptable theories have to include the fact that Marilyn ODed. From that there are tons of theories out there: injection, suicide, accident, enema, etc... (See my post http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/index.php?showtopic=6252 for discussion of some of them.

But it was never questionned that Marilyn died of something else than an overdose.
The amounts of Chloral Hydrate and Nembutal found in her liver were published in the autopsy report from the start, which mean the overdose is a fact.

Posted by: Nina Sep 16 2004, 10:53 PM

k, well it's hard to tell what I mean - I will try again because I could have been try to discribe it a little better wink3.gif

The autopsy doesn't proofed the pill theorie because there were no pills in her stomach or little of it. So the autopsy couldn't give the answer, if she really died because of the fact of pills (as they say) or if it was taken/given in luiqid via a needle or enema. It's not proofed for sure (100%) that she had taken pills that was what I mean wink3.gif - that she died because of an overdose was or is clear for me too.

But what people say what happend is not always what really happend. Maybe everyone should just think it was the way it did.

sadballerina.gif

Posted by: mels Sep 16 2004, 10:56 PM

QUOTE(Nina @ Sep 16 2004, 11:53 PM)
k, well it's hard to tell what I mean - I will try again because I could have been try to discribe it a little better wink3.gif

The autopsy doesn't proofed the pill theorie because there were no pills in her stomach or little of it. So the autopsy couldn't give the answer, if she really died because of the fact of pills (as they say) or if it was taken/given in luiqid via a needle or enema. It's not proofed for sure (100%) that she had taken pills that was what I mean wink3.gif - that she died because of an overdose was or is clear for me too.

But what people say what happend is not always what really happend. Maybe everyone should just think it was the way it did.

sadballerina.gif
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Oh okay I think I understand better now!
Indeed the autopsy says "overdose" but can't say how it was provoqued...

So I guess we agree on that one wink3.gif Sorry I misunderstood in the first place, I thought you meant that the autopsy didn't prove that she had ODed from Nembs and/or CH. Now that I read your message again I don't understand why I understood that LOL! Soooorryyyy blush.gif
Still love me ? laugh.gif wink3.gif

Posted by: Nina Sep 17 2004, 12:17 PM

QUOTE(mels @ Sep 16 2004, 10:56 PM)
Still love me ?  laugh.gif  wink3.gif
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hug.gif oh sure dear hug.gif always and forever, hehehe wink3.gif it was my fault!!!

Posted by: BeyondCamelot Sep 19 2004, 11:11 PM

Well.. As a Kennedy fan, first off, I do not believe the Kennedys killed her, intentionally or otherwise. Were they involved in a coverup? Indirectly, yes. I've read over 60 books on the Kennedys, and I like to think I know their personalities as much as someone could have for never meeting them. Bobby was ruthless, yes, but he wasn't a killer. The problem about the idea that the Kennedys were the only ones involved in the murder & coverup is insane, honestly. Could the Kennedy family, alone, have the knowledge of medicine to fake an overdose, destroy all evidence, botch the autopsy, and leave a mystery still going 42 years later? I really, really, don't think so. The Kennedys were lawyers, politicians. Not doctors. JFK himself couldn't have been involved, because of his bad back ( ruptured disc suffered in the attack of PT109, followed by several botched operations ) - he could hardly walk half the time ( the reason he himself didn't slump down during his own assassination is his rigid back brace ), let alone be physically capable of murder.

I think, more or less, the media had a part in the Kennedy affair coverup. It's been documented that the media turned a blind-eye to JFK's affairs during his lifetime, partially out of respect for Jackie & the kids. My grandfather heard, around 1961, from someone who knew a top Kennedy aide, that JFK was having affairs, and he's told me before how he was blown away because the media wasn't covering it and it was the President of the US. The most "explosive" scandal coming forth in the few years after JFK died is a magazine reporting the rumor that JFK had Addison's disease ( this magazine was 1971, I believe ), which wasn't proven until a few years ago. It's entirely possible that yes, RFK had a hand in the destruction of the diary, if it wasn't done by James Angleton ( who was known to have taken possession of ANOTHER diary featuring information about another woman's affair with JFK after her death in October 1964 ).

There's a theory that the mafia killed Marilyn as a warning to RFK to stop attempting to get Jimmy Hoffa, which is why the mystery of her death has never been solved. The theory continues that, when RFK still didn't give it up, the mafia was in on the murder of JFK ( which is linked to the fact Jack Ruby, who shot alleged assassin Lee Harvey Oswald, was a mafia gunrunner ). However, when RFK was running for President, and Hoffa's people had a contract out? RFK's assassinated himself, in a hotel pantry.

Personally, I think there was foul play involved, but I'm not sure as to what extent. Maybe in the actual death, maybe in the crime scene alteration area, who really knows?

Posted by: Ginger Sugar Sep 22 2004, 08:04 PM

I think suicide

Posted by: Tara Sep 22 2004, 09:14 PM

I think it was an accident - I don't believe she was suicidal at that time. I think there was a cover-up by the Kennedys, and also Dr Greenson and Eunice Murray, in the hours after her death. I don't think she was murdered though.

But this is just my opinion - I don't really know for sure. Actually it makes me sad just to write this.

Posted by: chris Sep 23 2004, 12:23 PM

I think that it was a medical error, an accident not really a murder but for sure no suicide
Chris


I saw a few days ago an interesting documentary on Discovery Channel and I learnt many things they explained especially why at the autopsy the coroner didn't discover pills

Posted by: mels Sep 23 2004, 10:03 PM

QUOTE(chris @ Sep 23 2004, 01:23 PM)
I think that it was a medical error, an accident not really a murder but for sure no suicide
Chris


I saw a few days ago an interesting documentary on Discovery Channel and I learnt many things they explained especially why at the autopsy the coroner didn't discover pills
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I saw this wonderful documentary very recently and I really loved it. For once the producers tried to explain what interests us all and made experiments to find the real answer.
There were some mistakes in it though, that were later acknowledged by the doctor who made the pills experiment. You can read more about that http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/index.php?showtopic=6252&view=findpost&p=61942 smile1.gif

Posted by: Fav Oct 3 2004, 05:27 PM

I just discovered yet another old documentary I taped in the 80's. It's called Norma Jean alias Marilyn Monroe and is hosted by French actress Catherine Deneuve. They play an audio tape of an interview Marilyn did with Georges Belmont in 1960. In it she states that 'I think that love and work are the only things that really happen to us and everything else doesn't really matter.One without the other isn't so good. I think that trying to be happy is almost as difficult as trying to be a good actress. You have to work at both of them'.

Catherine points out that around the time she died she had been fired from her work and there wasn't anyone special in her life love wise. This may have thrown her into despair. To quote Catherine 'One supposes that a few years later when she was fired, as she put it, and there was no-one in her life just then it didn't leave her much consolation. She must have had moments of despair and depression, short perhaps but crushing, devastating to her. Days when she hated herself. Times when she gave up all hope'.

To actually hear Marilyn saying the words quoted above is very powerful and makes you wonder. Catherine's thoughts make you wonder too.

Posted by: BlondeAmbition Oct 23 2004, 06:49 PM

I believe Spoto's theory. It makes the most sense to me. I believe either Greenson or Ms.Murray gave Marilyn an enema of chloral hydrate to calm her down or in effort to get her under control, without knowing about the Nembutal. Chloral hydrate and Nembutal do not mix, and as Spoto puts it, it was the chloral hydrate that put Marilyn "over the edge". I believe Greenson made a huge mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. In their attempts to keep Marilyn in their control and stay in her life, Greenson and Murray accidently killed her, and proceeded to cover it up, i.e. the washing of the bedsheets, and all the conflicting stories and lies. A tragic accident. I used to want to believe in a murder theory involving the Kennedys, but as I said, after looking over all the possible death theories, this one makes most sense to me.

Posted by: Nicotschka Feb 12 2005, 05:06 PM

QUOTE(Nina @ Sep 15 2004, 08:59 PM)
I do believe she was murdered and voted so. It was for sure a cover up and it had to do with the Kennedys. For me there was never a real investigation of her death. Maybe she had a disapointment with RFK and it was really something dirty and he wanted to calm her down and he hit her and she fall down and was death because of a broken back of the neck. I just said this (it could be so or not like 1000 other things could have been - everything are "could have been theories") but what  I want to say is that the causes of her death are never cleared, they have never been researched well... to tell the world she had commited suicide was the "easiest way" to find a story in 3 or 4 hours... the autopsy didn't proofed the pill theorie but couldn't gave another solution either (or they didn't wanted)...

And really, why did the FBI still make files when books (*l laugh.gif l*) have been published more than 20years after her death? Don't they have other (more important) things to do?
 
JMO
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I totally agree with Nina! For me the Kennedys killed her. Marilyn tried sometimes to kill herself, but she did it always with the chance of beeing founded by someone. And, my god I can't believe that she killed herself with an enema. How? And, why? If it would have been a suicide she would have taken the pills via the normal way...

Posted by: strawberry Feb 12 2005, 08:57 PM

I think it was an accidental death, but I'm keeping my mind open entirely. The best reason I've ever read was in a book, I don't remember which, and it's stuck with me. It was something along the lines of 'she wanted to die for the night, not forever'. I think that's probably true. I suffer from depression and I've often just wanted to drown out the pain but I'm terrified of death. I'd have been quite happy to leave my life for a few hours during my lowest time, and I think Marilyn was too, but not for good. So yes, I think it was probably accidental. A cry for help, perhaps, or just her way of keeping herself and her problems under wraps, but it all went wrong. :(

Posted by: hazy Feb 22 2005, 04:31 AM

I think she was murdered.

Posted by: sabine Mar 1 2005, 12:49 AM

Well, personnally i think that marilyn showed many signs of her impending suicide before her actual death, including her 1961 hospitalization into Payne Whitney.
I fel that marilyn's friends and associated were keeping a 'suicide watch' over marilyn during this time and there are many signs that point toward this fact.
As far as murder, there really isn't much of a Motive here.
Who wanted Marilyn Monroe dead badly enough? There just isn't an answer to this that makes sense.
The Kennedys? I think they had better things to do. Shutting Marilyn out seemed to be their way of dealing with her. The rest of the world already knew of her 'problems'...it would have been easy to dismiss her as a scorned, aging, troubeled moviestar....i also fail to see how murdering her would have been 'safer' and easier to 'cover whatever they wanted to cover' than simply dropping her.
Unless we want to believe that marilyn knew about 'Cuba" and "castro" and the rest of that nonsense. Are people grasping at straws to milk a sensational story out of marilyn's death?
Accidental overdose is totally impossible because the dose was too large....had she taken them all spaced out over time she would have passed out long before she could finish them all.
A high dose of drugs was found in Marilyn's bloodstream...this mean there was one large dose!
The enema theory is downright rediculous but also implausible. After speaking with a Nurse not familar with the details of the case she informed me that the colon is not designed to "absorb", but rater exspell matter. If the colon could absorb these pills it would also absorb the toxic waste our bodies clear away every day......the colon's job is to 'remove' matter from the body, not work in reverse and dump matter into the bloodstream....
Did a lightbulp just go on for you? It sure did for me!!
I think with the nurse explaining this to me i for the first time got a clear picture on how this works.
But what about the empty stomach, you ask.......
Well, she gave me another take on that one that was simple to understand....
She told me that there is no 'digestion' with medication because the pills lack proteins and fats the stomach would have to break down.
The pills would simply 'dissolve' very quickly and be passed along to the intestines, unless slowed down by something solid, such as food.
And we all know Marilyn ate nothing that day.....
I was suprised on how little time this disolving and absorption would actually take.....(under an hour).
We also have to factor in Marilyn's heavy usage of these pills and her body's familiarity with them.
So anyways....i have studied marilyn's life in detail for quite a while...i also rely greatly on my large collection of vintage magazines that were made while Marilyn was actually struggling but alive.....and there is no doubt that she was her own worst enemy.
I am afraid that we're barking up the wrong tree when we talk about all these 'conspiracys' and things, there seems to be no real evidence for.

sabine

Posted by: Mairi Mar 16 2005, 12:27 AM

Personally I think JOE Kennedy hired someone to kill her. While I respect the Kennedys as politicians, I think he was a pretty ruthless person and would do anything he could to get rid of someone that was complicating his sons' lives. I mean, he did some pretty shady stuff besides.

However, this is just my opinion. Until I meet Marilyn up there and ask her what happened, it'll all be just speculation.

Posted by: Dark_Temptation Mar 16 2005, 01:56 PM

I'm doubting between she's murdered and accidental. The both could be true, but I just can't/won't believe that she committed suicide.

Posted by: marie-marilyn Mar 17 2005, 09:47 PM

QUOTE(Dark_Temptation @ Mar 16 2005, 12:56 PM)
I'm doubting between she's murdered and accidental. The both could be true, but I just can't/won't believe that she committed suicide.
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I agree with you there. I don't think she commited suicide either.

Personally, I think it was either the Kennedys or perhaps an accidental overdose...but I am inclined to say she was murdered. Why they would want her dead though...perhaps she knew too much about something?

Posted by: Clift Mar 22 2005, 02:00 PM

In some books I read that the murder is by the Kennedys, and in others books (Daniel Spoto Biography) by an accidental medication. I dont what theory believe! I think that the most true theory is the Donald Spoto, but always have the dude!!

I think the blame of the Marilyn Monroe dead is in Dr. Greenson and the conspirer witch Eunice Murray...

And a little question .... Anybody remember how Marilyn meet the Doctor Greenson??

Sorry for my disastrous english
bye1.gif

PLEASE, C'MON REPLY MY POST! no.gif blush.gif

Posted by: marie-marilyn Mar 24 2005, 04:49 PM

QUOTE(Clift @ Mar 22 2005, 01:00 PM)
And a little question .... Anybody remember how Marilyn meet the Doctor Greenson??
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Early in 1960, Marilyn was consulting with Dr. Ralph Greenson, a prominent psychoanalyst to Hollywood stars. As common during this period, he relied heavily on drug therapy...routinely prescribing barbiturates and tranquilizers in addition to his psychotherapy...

That's a reference I keep coming up with if I search for Dr. Greenson and Marilyn. So defintely by 1960, I can't find anything to suggest they knew each other before that.

Posted by: Tara Mar 24 2005, 05:23 PM

Dr Greenson was recommended to Marilyn by her LA attorney, Milton Rudin. The first known time that Dr Greenson treated MM was in August 1960, when Marilyn was admitted to the Westside Hospital in LA after suffering a breakdown on the set of The Misfits.

According to The Unabridged Marilyn.

Posted by: sabine May 16 2005, 08:59 PM

Let's get right to it: The most compelling case for suicide is the fact that Marilyn herself bought the drugs that later killed her. This fact can not be ignored. She also had a history of suicide attempts and a family history of mental disturbances. She had been dpressed and under a psychiatrists care for years. She had been hooked on various drugs for years.
I know this is hard to take and understand. I struggle myself. But i can not ignore the obvious.
All the other stuff like killer enemas and hotshots and murderplots dismiss Marilyn's true problems. This is the problem i have with the conspiracy theories...they have very little proof (if any) to prove their case and they totally ignore what was going on in Marilyn's Life.

my 2 cents worth


sabine

Posted by: ariella Jun 3 2005, 10:17 PM

QUOTE(MM_Yvonne @ Jul 7 2004, 02:49 PM)
i don`t mean it like that Val...but i don`t know how TO put it so that you`ll understand....I`m sorry
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I understand wht you mean, don't woory! I think it's sometimes very hard to put into words wht we mean. What you mean is a large part of marilyn popularity is based on the fact that she died young and that her death was tragic ( no matter how she died it wasn't a "natural" death). If she were alive the truth is she would not be as popular. Fans are focused on her beauty and youth afterall. As a 79 year old woman I believe few people would care about her. It's like james Dean, had he lived his fan base would more than likely be quite small.

So, it would be wonderful had she lived to be older( which I know is what you meant) but her fame would be not as massive as it is now. people worship sex beauty and youth , glamour and tragedy, they don't find a happy, well adjusted older person all that interesting.

Posted by: sabine Jun 13 2005, 01:48 AM

Ariella....good point! thumbup1.gif
look at Marlon Brando...he was huge in the 50's and later he bacame huge, in another, less flattering way. And even though people respected his talent, nobody was gushing over him like they do over James Dean to this day.....don't see a Malon Brando calendar every year, do ya??? Hehehehe... biggrin.gif
It's not fair but it's a fact....
Marilyn as a 79 year old woman, worshipped by the masses? Very unlikely.....she assured her own immortality because of her premature death, as did Dean.
What a price to pay for everlasting fame.... no.gif

sabine

Posted by: meganmarilyn Jun 13 2005, 03:00 AM

Brando wasn't the icon that Marilyn or Dean were in the 1950's either. Brando didn't inspire teenagers to rebel or change their style of dress like Dean did. Big difference.

And even when Elvis died, fat and 42, he still had people crying and lines longer than you can imagine wanting to pay their last respects. He still had people fanting at the sight of him in concert. You can't say that about Brando. I don't think I have ever read anyone fanting at the sight of seeing Brando in person or people ringing his doorbell screaming his name just to get a glimpse, like people did for Elvis or Marilyn.

I for one would love Marilyn even more today if she did live and she was still alive. Because I would have that much more respect for her life, living as long as she did.

QUOTE(sabine @ Jun 13 2005, 12:48 AM)
A
riella....good point!  thumbup1.gif
look at Marlon Brando...he was huge in the 50's and later he bacame huge, in another, less flattering way. And even though people respected his talent, nobody was gushing over him like they do over James Dean to this day.....don't see a Malon Brando calendar every year, do ya???  Hehehehe... biggrin.gif
It's not fair but it's a fact....
Marilyn as a 79 year old woman, worshipped by the masses? Very unlikely.....she assured her own immortality because of her premature death, as did Dean.
What a price to pay for everlasting fame.... no.gif

sabine
[snapback]80834[/snapback]

Posted by: minx_dublin Jun 13 2005, 11:19 AM

Just wanted to state for the record that I agree with Sabine's theory.

I remember when I was fifteen and started reading bios on Marilyn that the one thing that kept jumping out of the pages were the repeated suicide attempts. She was prone to them, I think Miller made a comment after her death along the lines that it was sadly inevitable. Thats pretty much the way I feel.

People will always look for conspiracies. Look at the Princess Diana death. That was an accident, full stop, but people are constantly trying to prove she was murdered. I think our human nature can't bear the loss of a youthful and beautiful woman.

I agree that there appears to have been a cover up. And I'm still trying to figure out in my own head why that was. They obviously should not have touched the scene and called the police immediatley. That didn't happen and its strange. Perhaps the Kenndys were being warned so as to brace them for media interest. Perhaps it was a PR excercise where they felt they wanted to present Marilyn in the best possible way. OR...perhaps her overdose was administered by someone else. I don't rule that out. But lets be clear....Marilyn did not have secrets that could take down the United States government. I will never believe otherwise and while she may have been getting slightly over eager in her affair with Robert Kennedy, I dont believe he ever considered she would go public. Also note that Dimaggio, who loved her very much, never appears to have questioned her cause of death. Thats because he had seen her at her lowest moments, he saw the demons that haunted her and he knew what she was capable of.

Posted by: MrSpatz Aug 19 2005, 12:14 PM

I find it almost impossible to have an opinion on this. There are so many conflicting stories and inconsistencies.
Unlike a lot of the folks on this board, I'm no expert on the subject, but what strikes me is that by all accounts Marilyn didn't seem to be all that unhappy with life in general at the time. A few years ago the BBC aired a show based on tapes of her last interview and she struck me as being in an unusually positive state of mind. After all the troubles and upset in her life she sounded like she might be finally finding some sort of balance. The only area of her life which seemed to be distressing her was the whole Kennedy mess.
I don't believe it could have been a straighforward suicide, not just because I like to believe that Marilyn was a stronger person than that, but because the amount of people who have changed their stories over and over again throughout the years. There was obviously a major cover-up going on. Which makes me wonder: why have a cover-up unless there is something terrible to hide?
I feel sure that when Marilyn awoke on the morning of August the 4th she had no intention of ending her life that night. If she did take her own life she must have been driven to it by some very distressing events.

Posted by: Robby Sep 15 2005, 03:56 PM

I think Marilyn Monroe was murdred.

Posted by: rose Dec 22 2005, 12:51 PM

QUOTE(MM_Yvonne @ Jul 7 2004, 11:03 AM) [snapback]56750[/snapback]
yeah...i agree with you all....i know this sound horrible, but in a way it`s sort of good that she died...cuz if she was still alive, i don`t think she would have had so many fans.....i mean look at liz taylor...don`t think she has fans like us...but any way...that`s just my opinion


I know what you mean and I agree with you. I also know that it's difficult to express perfectly yourself with language that is not your own mother's tongue.

------------

I am so tired of reading about conspiracy-theories around Marilyn.I don't know either how she died but she did have history of taking overdoses to get attention so maybe she tried it and was going to call help and thinking that after seeing what almost had happened to her studio(etc) should treat her more gently,with respect whatever.But luck wasn't on her side.Noone came to save her and her "cry for attention" got a tragic,unexpected end.Marilyn died-the legend was born... sadballerina.gif

Posted by: Cuddlebottoms Jan 23 2006, 10:22 AM

Rose, I loved how you quoted "Marilyn died-the legend was born..."
Thats very true.

Anywho-there are soooooooo many stories, rumors and just plain out unknown facts about her death, that it is hard for me to think about.
There are facts prooving some points but some that prove others.

Suicide: No. In my opinion, I highly doubt she would kill herself at that time. I mean, the day of her funeral she was suppossed to re-marry Joe. Plus she had other positive things surrounding her at that time. So why would she kill herself?

Murder: unsure.gif That one is hard. 80% of me thinks it is, but the other 20% thinks it could be a possibility that it was an accident. Didn't, Greenson(was that his name) prescribe her some medication? And then some other doctors? I read somewhere on this board about that, but I am too tired to search through it all.

But all I know is I think this whole case should rest, because Marilyn is in a better place-however, I think Hughe's idea of resuming(hope I used that word right tongue.gif) her body out of the crypt might be a good idea. Just for another autopsy just to really find out, especially for us curious fans who are dying to know what really happened would probably give us some closure.

If she actually intended on killing herself and did it, to me, that is worse than murder.

Posted by: Celia Feb 25 2006, 12:53 PM

I go with Sabine,
I have read all those shity books by Spoto and WOlfe and others, and Sabine has proved me that they were all lying. Sabine sent me some pics were we can see light coming out of Marilynīs door. So they lied when they said no light could be seen. And she gave me other proofs too that they were lying.
I used to think she was murdered, then I changed my mind and came to the conclusion that it was an accident but now, Iīm almost thought not 100 per cent sure, it was an intented suicide.
The only questions I have now is whether there was a cover up or not. I mean, did these people changed their stories over the years? Or they were changed by these authors and people like Slatzer just to sell us books???
Who said that Marilyn was found long before they called the police? ( Apparently Nathalie Jacobs is not reliable). Sabine was right when she told me there are lots of people who love to invent things regarding Marilyn because they feel important ( Think of Jeane Carmen, Slatzer, John Minor, etc)
The enema theory is unbelievable: excrements were found in Marilynīs body, and she hadnīt eaten all day, so no possible enema!!

Posted by: ellen Feb 25 2006, 03:05 PM

ok i have two words on this subject ASK SABINE thumbup1.gif

Posted by: Robby Feb 25 2006, 09:00 PM

Marilyn did ate that day. An grapefruit.

Posted by: Celia Feb 26 2006, 01:43 PM

QUOTE(Robby @ Feb 25 2006, 09:00 PM) [snapback]99359[/snapback]
Marilyn did ate that day. An grapefruit.


Yes Robby a grapefruit for breakfast. Thatīs a lot of food!

Posted by: Tara Feb 26 2006, 07:22 PM

Her stomach was empty. Eunice Murray said that she had grapefruit juice, but accounts vary. It's quite likely that taking meds and not eating properly made her less able to cope, even added to her worries.

Posted by: Lauren Michele Apr 7 2006, 07:38 PM

HI. I didn't see this topic, I would have typed my opinion under this. If you look under suicide you will find my message ONLY I believe Marilyn Monroe was murdered. I really don't have the ability to type it again. She in my opinion did not commit suicide. Nor was it an accident of taking too many of the wrong pills. If you like to read it your welcome to. I do believe I rambled. There is so much to say! There is more I just can't think at this moment. All in all, it was a terrible injustice what they did to her. She was too young and they wanted to shut her up basically. Innocent, grown, Norma Jeane blossomed and her life was cut short. no.gif Now I am sad. Here is a heart Norma Jeane with love, throb.gif

Posted by: Lauren Michele Apr 7 2006, 10:53 PM

Hi there bye1.gif It is almost tied with accidental death. Does anyone feel very passionately about their opinion and would try to persuay (sp) me otherwise? I would love to believe it was an accident. Not murder or suicide. I don't want an arguement. How would Marilyn accidently take too many pills? Thank you. Lauren Michele. marilynbybrandon_190.gif

Posted by: Laura Apr 10 2006, 01:15 AM

QUOTE(Nina @ Sep 15 2004, 08:59 PM) [snapback]61896[/snapback]
I do believe she was murdered and voted so. It was for sure a cover up and it had to do with the Kennedys. For me there was never a real investigation of her death. Maybe she had a disapointment with RFK and it was really something dirty and he wanted to calm her down and he hit her and she fall down and was death because of a broken back of the neck. I just said this (it could be so or not like 1000 other things could have been - everything are "could have been theories") but what I want to say is that the causes of her death are never cleared, they have never been researched well... to tell the world she had commited suicide was the "easiest way" to find a story in 3 or 4 hours... the autopsy didn't proofed the pill theorie but couldn't gave another solution either (or they didn't wanted)...

And really, why did the FBI still make files when books (*l laugh.gif l*) have been published more than 20years after her death? Don't they have other (more important) things to do?

JMO


thumbup1.gif I agree with you. I've always believed that she was murdered and I also believe that at the time she died, she wasn't ready to go. I don't have alot more to say because I'd be repeating other people, haha, so there's not much point in that blush.gif

Posted by: Lauren Michele Jul 28 2006, 09:26 AM

I didn't look at the date of my last post, about 2 posts ago. I had believed she was murdered. I started my own topic how I had changed my feelings and opinion.
I now believe Marilyn died of an accidental overdose. In my opinion, Marilyn was overwhelmed or distraught for whatever reason and wanted to numb her pain temporarily. She became desparate, IMO, perhaps drinking, she downed too many pills. I think Marilyn wanted to feel the numbness of the pills for a brief time. But she was overcome from the amount very quickly. She called out for help and it was to late.
I don't want to keep speculating but that is how I see it. throb.gif Plus, It would be very important to add her mental status. I learned Marilyn was Bi-Polar. I am not sure of what else. There may have been other disorders. That in itself is a very self-destructive illness IF one is not being treated properly. Marilyn was a very complex woman. Beautiful, but complex.
Two posts ago, I was on the edge of beleiving Marilyn died of an accident, I just re-read my old post from Apr. I was started to change my opinion. Noone though talked me into it. I am wondering what changed me completely.

Posted by: Tara Jul 28 2006, 08:50 PM

I think it was accidental suicide - she was very upset that day and she tried to numb herself with drugs, forgetting what was already in her system. She had emotional problems but was not getting the right treatment - due to being given inappropriate drugs and becoming addicted, and also the controlling attitude of her doctors.

That's just my opinion, I don't think we'll ever know the truth. But I've been a fan for many years and considered all the theories. This is the one I always come back to.

Posted by: Lauren Michele Jul 28 2006, 09:15 PM

Was Marilyn ever allowed, under Dr. Greenson, if you know, to think for herself? Or did she soley rely and take every word he said as gospel. I have a psychiatrist for instance, but if I am not comforable with something she suggested, let it be medicine, side effects etc. If I can't get a hold of her, I wean myself off until I get on the phone. Or, I make sure I tell her that I am not comfortable with what she wants me to do or take. She respects that and we have a mutual understanding. Again, did Marilyn ever think for herself around this doctor of hers? Does anyone know? She most certainly had rights.

Posted by: Tara Aug 1 2006, 09:13 PM

I think Greenson had good intentions but his methods were questionable. He seemed to treat Marilyn almost as a helpless child, so naturally this made her dependent on him. He encouraged her to become part of his family life, so the professional boundaries became blurred. And when he was put on the payroll at Fox, I think he really crossed the line.

Posted by: Lauren Michele Aug 1 2006, 10:25 PM

I don't know the full extent of how well Dr. Greenson was as a doctor to Marilyn. But I am wondering if Marilyn's personality was such as a child it propeled the doctor to treat her as such unintentionally. I mean to want to take her in to his family. Maybe not because of who she was but what she was, a child in an adults body. I agree that professional boundaries became lost along there. I feel in a way that I understand this relationship because my psychiatrist (woman) and I became very close. ...Lauren

Posted by: Robby Aug 7 2006, 02:59 PM

I first thought she had comitted suiced, then I thought it was murder, and now I'm totally confused, I have different reasons for everything:

SUICIDE:

- Marilyn was very depressed at that stage in her life, the studio fired her (eventually rehired her), and she lost her
convidence. That was worsened when the studio told her that they would sue her, and that she would never work again.
Here she was 36, and all were she worked for in her life, was gone.
- Her moods changed constantly, for expample: one hour she could be laughing, be very happy and etc. and
then she could be a very sad and depressed woman.
- Marilyn Monroe had ALOT of suicide attempts in her life, mostly because her troubled childhood, her misscariages,
her failed marriages, and, she felt she had no love in her life.

ACCIDENT:

- Five days before her death, her friend and former lover James Bacon visited Marilyn at her house,
She was happy, laughed much. But then he saw that Marilyn mixed pill's with alcohol and he said: 'Marilyn,
the combination of pill's and alcohol can kill you.' She laughed, and replied: 'It hasn't killed me yet.'
- Marilyn often forgot how many pill's she took, and took more. When she had done that, Marilyn was
un conscience. Maybe at the night of her death, she also forgot how many pill's she had swallowed, and took
so much, that she was dead in a few hours.
- Marilyn liked the feeling of living in a dream world when she was under influence of alot of pill's.
When this feeling stopped, Marilyn would took more pill's. She could have taken an overdose to get that
feeling.

MURDER:

- She had a connection with the Kennedy's. Marilyn had an affair with both Robert, and John.
Three days before her death Robert ended his affair with Marilyn. Marilyn was furious, she told him
that if he wouldn't marry her (Because he promised that), she would tell everything about her relationship
to the public. Three days later Marilyn was found dead in bed.
- Eunice Murray could have killed Marilyn with a fatal enema. Because when the police arrived at the residence
of Marilyn's home, she washing laundry.
- Also Eunice said that Marilyn's door was locked, this couldn't be the case, becuase all the lock's in Marilyn's
home were broke.

Well, I know some of these arguments are somehow 'True or not true', as Tara calls it Faction, but I just wanted to give me 2 cents.

This is also posted on my Website, see my signature for the link.

Robby.

Posted by: Tara Aug 7 2006, 07:08 PM

QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Aug 1 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]110793[/snapback]
I don't know the full extent of how well Dr. Greenson was as a doctor to Marilyn. But I am wondering if Marilyn's personality was such as a child it propeled the doctor to treat her as such unintentionally. I mean to want to take her in to his family. Maybe not because of who she was but what she was, a child in an adults body. I agree that professional boundaries became lost along there. I feel in a way that I understand this relationship because my psychiatrist (woman) and I became very close. ...Lauren


Yes, Marilyn brought out the protective side in people, and I know Dr Greenson devoted himself to her care. But still, I think he crossed a line in terms of his own professionalism towards a vulnerable patient. For example when he became a paid adviser on SGTG - was he really thinking of Marilyn's needs then, or his own?

I'm not saying that he was to blame for her death at all. But I don't think he was helping Marilyn to be more independent. Like so many people in Marilyn's circle, I think he started out with good intentions but became possessive and controlling. By the end, I think Dr Greenson needed help as much as she did.

Posted by: Lauren Michele Aug 8 2006, 02:53 AM

QUOTE(Tara @ Aug 7 2006, 07:08 PM) [snapback]111363[/snapback]
Yes, Marilyn brought out the protective side in people, and I know Dr Greenson devoted himself to her care. But still, I think he crossed a line in terms of his own professionalism towards a vulnerable patient. For example when he became a paid adviser on SGTG - was he really thinking of Marilyn's needs then, or his own?

I'm not saying that he was to blame for her death at all. But I don't think he was helping Marilyn to be more independent. Like so many people in Marilyn's circle, I think he started out with good intentions but became possessive and controlling. By the end, I think Dr Greenson needed help as much as she did.


Yes I agree with you very much.

Posted by: Young Aug 8 2006, 05:25 AM

QUOTE(Tara @ Aug 7 2006, 02:08 PM) [snapback]111363[/snapback]
Yes, Marilyn brought out the protective side in people, and I know Dr Greenson devoted himself to her care. But still, I think he crossed a line in terms of his own professionalism towards a vulnerable patient. For example when he became a paid adviser on SGTG - was he really thinking of Marilyn's needs then, or his own?

I'm not saying that he was to blame for her death at all. But I don't think he was helping Marilyn to be more independent. Like so many people in Marilyn's circle, I think he started out with good intentions but became possessive and controlling. By the end, I think Dr Greenson needed help as much as she did.



I agree, also.

I am someone who experiences amazing highs and tumultuous lows as many said Marilyn did. Many times I've been depressed and have attempted suicide only to regret it as I felt myself "going under." If she suffered as I do, I think it could've been an accidental overdose/probable suicide. As for my own opinion, I think she was murdered.

Posted by: Lauren Michele Aug 29 2006, 09:53 PM

QUOTE(Robby @ Aug 7 2006, 02:59 PM) [snapback]111317[/snapback]
I first thought she had comitted suiced, then I thought it was murder, and now I'm totally confused, I have different reasons for everything:

SUICIDE:

- Marilyn was very depressed at that stage in her life, the studio fired her (eventually rehired her), and she lost her
convidence. That was worsened when the studio told her that they would sue her, and that she would never work again.
Here she was 36, and all were she worked for in her life, was gone.
- Her moods changed constantly, for expample: one hour she could be laughing, be very happy and etc. and
then she could be a very sad and depressed woman.
- Marilyn Monroe had ALOT of suicide attempts in her life, mostly because her troubled childhood, her misscariages,
her failed marriages, and, she felt she had no love in her life.

ACCIDENT:

- Five days before her death, her friend and former lover James Bacon visited Marilyn at her house,
She was happy, laughed much. But then he saw that Marilyn mixed pill's with alcohol and he said: 'Marilyn,
the combination of pill's and alcohol can kill you.' She laughed, and replied: 'It hasn't killed me yet.'
- Marilyn often forgot how many pill's she took, and took more. When she had done that, Marilyn was
un conscience. Maybe at the night of her death, she also forgot how many pill's she had swallowed, and took
so much, that she was dead in a few hours.
- Marilyn liked the feeling of living in a dream world when she was under influence of alot of pill's.
When this feeling stopped, Marilyn would took more pill's. She could have taken an overdose to get that
feeling.

MURDER:

- She had a connection with the Kennedy's. Marilyn had an affair with both Robert, and John.
Three days before her death Robert ended his affair with Marilyn. Marilyn was furious, she told him
that if he wouldn't marry her (Because he promised that), she would tell everything about her relationship
to the public. Three days later Marilyn was found dead in bed.
- Eunice Murray could have killed Marilyn with a fatal enema. Because when the police arrived at the residence
of Marilyn's home, she washing laundry.
- Also Eunice said that Marilyn's door was locked, this couldn't be the case, becuase all the lock's in Marilyn's
home were broke.

Well, I know some of these arguments are somehow 'True or not true', as Tara calls it Faction, but I just wanted to give me 2 cents.

This is also posted on my Website, see my signature for the link.

Robby.


Hi Robby. I don't know how to take a section of a statement from a members posts quote so i took your whole post. I just wonder, why do people think Ms. Murray is the one who is likely to have injected Marilyn with the fatal enema? I don't believe the murder conspiracy altogether. But why is Eunice somehow involved? There are a tremendous amount of people, who feel she was murdered, and Eunice gave an enema. I know noone really can answer this but i just ask anyway. I remember about 20 to 25 now years ago, a documentary and i am sorry the name escapes me...well, on the night Marilyn died, she called a friend. It wasn't Jeanne Carmen. I believe the friend is now deceased. She called this friend crying, to say good-bye. It kills me i can't remember the title. I was younger. Of course. It fit in with suicide. Or accidental suicide. A cry for help.

Posted by: Tara Aug 29 2006, 10:08 PM

QUOTE(Lauren Michele @ Aug 29 2006, 09:53 PM) [snapback]113383[/snapback]
I remember about 20 to 25 now years ago, a documentary and i am sorry the name escapes me...well, on the night Marilyn died, she called a friend. It wasn't Jeanne Carmen. I believe the friend is now deceased. She called this friend crying, to say good-bye. It kills me i can't remember the title. I was younger. Of course. It fit in with suicide. Or accidental suicide. A cry for help.


It was Ralph Roberts, her masseur and friend. He heard a message from a slurred woman's voice on his answering machine, but unfortunately he wasn't home at the time. He believed it was Marilyn, but couldn't make out what she was saying. I do think he was the last person she called - they were very close and she often called him 'brother'. He is a very reliable source, unlike some people who claim to have spoken to Marilyn that night.

Ralph is no longer with us, but his estate have a website including extracts from his memoir of Marilyn, which is regularly updated. It is very touching and shows his deep loyalty to her.

http://www.ralphlroberts.com/Default.htm

Posted by: Lauren Michele Aug 29 2006, 11:03 PM

Tara i just want to thank you for that information before you leave this evening. I actually became teary eyed. All of these years, i had the assumption it was a female and she actually spoke to her on the phone. This information to me is believeable due to it coming from you. I will definaltely look into his website with much respect. Thank you.

Tara i am just openly weeping not only for Marilyn's cry out to Mr. Robert's, but i feel for him that i am most sure he wishes he would have been there for Marilyn. I hope he carries no guilt because there is none to be blamed for this accident. I am looking at his face and to think that, that man is the last human being Marilyn reached out to. I just love her though never knowing her.

Posted by: RetroLove Sep 29 2006, 08:50 PM

I think she was murdered.

Posted by: Katri^ Oct 1 2006, 11:37 AM

I belive that she was murdered; Ralph Greenson and Eunice Murray :/

I mean that Murray and Greenson planned it, and Murray did it.

Posted by: Nina Oct 1 2006, 08:01 PM

QUOTE(Katri^ @ Oct 1 2006, 12:37 PM) [snapback]116628[/snapback]
I belive that she was murdered; Ralph Greenson and Eunice Murray :/

I mean that Murray and Greenson planned it, and Murray did it.


What motive should they both have to kill her? I'm open for other opinions but see nothing, why they should have planned it? It makes no sense, that the gov. of the US hide and classify documents as a security risk, when Greenson and Murray should have been killed her.

bye1.gif

Posted by: Katri^ Oct 2 2006, 01:57 PM

Edited the post; opinion has changed so much wink3.gif

Posted by: Alexandria Jan 14 2007, 04:58 AM

I refuse to believe it was intentional suicide. After reading different cases and explanations, i'm stuck between accidental or murder. it's just so much information, and a lot of it doesn't make sense. More of it leans a bit towards murder because how RFK was supposedly at her home, and then the red diary went missing? Doesn't sound good to me.

Posted by: JanCollector Jan 14 2007, 05:39 AM

QUOTE(Alexandria @ Jan 14 2007, 04:58 AM) [snapback]124718[/snapback]
I refuse to believe it was intentional suicide. After reading different cases and explanations, i'm stuck between accidental or murder. it's just so much information, and a lot of it doesn't make sense. More of it leans a bit towards murder because how RFK was supposedly at her home, and then the red diary went missing? Doesn't sound good to me.


I think there was a cleanup afterwards....but it doesn't mean they killed her. I think they took the red diary and a few personal notes.

The only thing that really makes sense is this: she was accidentally killed by a Nembutal enema administered by Mrs. Murray. It is the simplest, most likely solution.

Marilyn woke up late that day. Pat Newcomb said she hadn't slept well at all and was very grumpy and slightly groggy. She still had some Nembutal in her system. Remember that Greenson had been trying to wean Marilyn off Nembutal, but Engelberg was still filling her prescriptions....and not telling Greenson about it! Later that afternoon he gives her an injection of chloral hydrate........which slows Nembutal processing in the liver! Marilyn still can't get to sleep, and after her conversation with Joe Jr. has Eunice administer a Nembutal enema. Greenson didn't know that Marilyn had any Nembutal, and Marilyn didn't know about the dangers of mixing chloral and Nembutal. The enema didn't contain 50 pills, but the chloral had slowed the processing and excretion of the previous night's dosage enough to create an additive effect. So Marilyn goes to bed and never wakes up. Eunice finds her, rather early I imagine, and Greenson and Engelberg are called over (Greenson says something along the lines of "Goddamn it, he gave her a prescription I didn't know about."). Greenson and Engelberg realize their professional reputations are on the line, so they have Mrs. Murray clean up the room, they arrange Marilyn on the bed with the telephone in her hands, and concoct a story. Then they call the police, and Jack Clemmons arrives to finds Eunice doing the laundry, as instructed.

Posted by: jemaniac Jan 21 2007, 09:03 PM

I don't believe any of the RFK stuff. I don't believe she ever had any sexual relationship with him, I don't believe she had any mob connections... There isn't any substantial evidence to support it as fact.

Posted by: dwane Jan 22 2007, 10:03 PM

i think she was murdered. i think that JFK had her killed.

Posted by: Ileana Jan 23 2007, 12:17 PM

An accident, may it be doctors or Marilyn herself losing track. No certainties, but I don't think she had the intention to commit suicide and definitely not murdered.

Posted by: chris Jan 26 2007, 06:31 PM

If every people "fired" have to murdered the responsible
they will have many many murders
For me it's not a reason
Chris

Posted by: missmarilyn Jan 26 2007, 06:40 PM

Well, I think it was either suicide or accidental suicide. We all know that she was depressed and prone to suicide, and she tried before but failed. But accidental suicide is different, she may have wanted to kill herself but she wanted to do something or say something to someone. But she took the multiple pills and overdosed. And it wasn't till later Eunice found her light bedroom still on, but no noise.

I'm not sure what to think but those two options are HIGHLY possible.

Posted by: JanCollector Jan 27 2007, 05:23 PM

QUOTE(missmarilyn @ Jan 26 2007, 06:40 PM) [snapback]126014[/snapback]
Well, I think it was either suicide or accidental suicide. We all know that she was depressed and prone to suicide, and she tried before but failed. But accidental suicide is different, she may have wanted to kill herself but she wanted to do something or say something to someone. But she took the multiple pills and overdosed. And it wasn't till later Eunice found her light bedroom still on, but no noise.

I'm not sure what to think but those two options are HIGHLY possible.


Except the autopsy showed that she could not have died through oral ingestion of pills.

Posted by: marked77 May 7 2007, 04:14 AM

I am wanting to know how much insurance money 20th fox got on marilyns death. As we know fox rehired marilyn 3 days before she died. We know that fox was in debt from cleopatra. I have a feeling that fox had a hand in marilyns death in order to claim insurance money to get them out of debt

In the sgtg final hours doc the producer henry said "IF MARILYN HAD A HEART ATTACK WE COULD NOT GET INSURANCE WITH THIS (OVERDOSE) WE CAN".

Fox sent out propaganda about marilyn being unstable etc so the public would think SHE MUST HAVE KILLED HERSELF.

CA ANYONE TELL ME HOW MUCH INSURANCE FOX GOT IN TOTAL ON MARILYNS DEATH

Posted by: albosil May 18 2007, 01:48 AM

I'm not really familiar with EXACT details, but wasn't her body moved? She died in the guest bedroom i think and was later moved to her bedroom where she was placed in a non-normal poisition "soldier postition" (something like that) and she was holding a telephone. Besides that, there were numerous accounts of RFK being seen in the neighborhood and also, i believe her file had A LOT of missing pages from it..where they "suddenly" disappeared. Also, All those pills they said she took....there was no glass around her ..she couldn't have taken that many pills without any water. An accidental overdose or an intentional suicide wouldn't require the coverup her death had. TOO many people changed their stories way too often. I think it was murder...whether it was the Kennedys...i don't think we'll ever know.

Posted by: Robby May 20 2007, 05:17 PM

Well Silva, there was a glass at Marilyn's bedside. There is a picture of it. And Marilyn could have swallowed them orally, I have a dcoumantary, and they are testing Nembutals how many hours it takes for a Nembutal to dissolve, and it was less than an hour, even before it effected her system. And there is also no proof that Robert Kennedy was at her house that day or in the neighborhorhood, nor that her body was moved from the guest bedroom, to her own. Her body was moved in her bed, though. Her head was turned to the left, and the telephone receiver was removed from her hand. Also they covered her, because the sheets weren't covering her when she was found.

Posted by: bonadrag May 20 2007, 08:38 PM

what about the broken window?

Posted by: Robby May 21 2007, 04:36 PM

There is no proof that the window glass was laying outside, there are no pictures of it. And in one of the police files is a picture were a woman (Maybe Eunice Murray) is standing by the window, and you can see some glass laying on the ground before the window.

Posted by: meztisa May 21 2007, 10:03 PM

QUOTE(JanCollector @ Jan 27 2007, 12:23 PM) [snapback]126088[/snapback]
Except the autopsy showed that she could not have died through oral ingestion of pills.


Are there signs of injection in any particular place?

Posted by: Robby May 22 2007, 01:37 PM

The autopsy report did not mention injection signs. John Miner said they looked on her body for it, but couldn't find it.

Posted by: meztisa May 23 2007, 06:53 PM

How did she overdose then? If not orally or by injection?

Posted by: Ileana May 24 2007, 02:17 PM

There's always the enema theory, but that has its weaknesses too...

Posted by: Robby May 25 2007, 04:11 PM

Also, the autopsy report is wrong about how many pills she took. They say about 40 pills, but in fact it was about 25.

Posted by: Ultraviolet May 26 2007, 05:02 PM

What about the ambulance that came to fetch her? From many sources during the years I've read that somebody called an ambulance, she was taken to Santa Monica Hospital (the same where she was born in) and that they tried to revive her but didn't succeed and she died in the hospital. By the law, they should have left her there, in the hospital and the morgue, but somebody gave orders to drive her body back to Brentwood and her bedroom.

At least in Anthony Summers' book there are interviews about this, and either in this or some other book it says that the ambulancedriver had allways been too scary to talk about and yet now (1983) "doesn't want to give his name and wants to keep a low profile" about the case.

Posted by: Robby May 26 2007, 10:00 PM

As far as I know that was also dispelled as a myth. They said they gave her an stimulating injection, but then there were not found any injection signs on her body.

Posted by: lorileime Jun 19 2007, 01:26 AM

My theory is that Dr. Greenson killed her, but it was an accident. Remember, he was manipulating her as an employee of 20th Century Fox. He had been hired by Fox and had promised them that HE would be personally responsible for making sure she would get SGTG finished. I think in his own little mind, he was suffering of some sort of self agrandizing fantasy. He was convinced that if he could get Monroe to the studio and make her finish the movie, that he would be lauded as the greatest psychiatrist in Hollywood and that all of the rich and famous of Hollywood would flock to his door and he would them, by proxy, become famous himself. In the meantime, Marilyn, who had been spending more and more time with Joe and who had begun to come to the reality that she really didn't need psychotherapy but a real, loving relationship, and was beginning to get her life together, (if we believe that she and Joe were schedule to remarry, which I do because of how completely and deeply he was affected by her death), and the fact that she had made arrangements to start working in television, which she had been convinced before by Milton Greene to stay away from because she was a Silver Screen Star and too big for tv, and with her work at the actor's studio giving her more confidence to move on, etc, etc, I believe accounts that she was ready to get rid of Greenson and that Greenson, probably through Murray, had found this out. Greenson then, (and this is just conjecture on my part) convinced Murray to help him in a scheme because if not, if he goes, she goes (out of a job). The plan was to give Marilyn her regular enema, (which many females stars did back then to keep themselves cleaned out and as thin as possible), but the enema would be laced with Chloral Hydrate (which the autopsy couldn't figure out how it got into her system). Added to whatever else Marilyn was taking anyway, Nembutal, etc., she would slip into a very deep, coma-like state and Greenson would arrive just in time, after having been tipped off by Murray, and save Marilyn's life. That would indebt her to him to such a deep degree that she would not be able to fire him and he would be the hero-psychoanalyst who saved the world, saved the star, saved the picture, saved the studio. No one would be able to deny him anything. I even think that reports of him injecting something into her heart would make sense because even today, there are instances where patients are injected with adrenaline directly into their hearts when they stop beating. Adrenaline will start a heart beating again. But, since Marilyn didn't know that she was being tricked, she may have taken two or three Nembutal that night because she really needed or wanted to get a good rest. That may have been just enough to take her over the edge. Or, if Murray was involved, what if Greenson had left instructions with Murray as to how much CH to add to the enema and Murray screwed up the dosage and killed her. Either way, the two of them were in on it together and it ended up being just an accident perpetrated by an ego-maniacal deeply disturbed individual trying to further his own fame and fortune. What really needs to be done is a very lengthy and in-depth study of Greenson's whole life. Why he wanted to be a psychiatrist, how he got there and what happened to him after MM's died. Also, the explaination about Murray washing clothes after MM died, once Marilyn slipped into a coma, her body naturally expelled the remaining liquid and the bed was probably a mess. So the sheets were changed, the body moved, etc. That's why Clemens knew instantly that the scene was altered and that MM had't died from a suicied. Murray probably threw out the enema bag and the CH bottle in the trash that she supposedly had her nephew take away. That's why no evidence was found. Remember, even though it wasn't that long ago, police back then didn't have all of the forensic knowledge they have now. Today, they would have shut down the neighborhood and investigated everything. Sorry to go on and on, but I think I'm right on this one. Anyone else with an opinion, please add it. I'd love to hear it.

Posted by: lorileime Jun 21 2007, 06:24 PM

Jack the Ripper's mother never loved him. Thanks for the vote of confidence with my Greenson theory.

Posted by: luvyou_MM Sep 11 2007, 02:46 AM

Im definitly on the murder side. I used to lean to the accidental side but now Ive just read sooo much that shocks me and no I believe it was murder and a HUGE cover up from so many different parties.

Posted by: BeforeTheDawn Oct 21 2007, 02:29 AM

I sadly think she was killed :(

Posted by: tigerlily Oct 26 2007, 12:20 PM

QUOTE(BeforeTheDawn @ Oct 21 2007, 11:29 AM) *
I sadly think she was killed :(


i agree

Posted by: Shirley Mar 23 2008, 10:08 AM

QUOTE(lorileime @ Jun 19 2007, 02:26 AM) *
My theory is that Dr. Greenson killed her, but it was an accident. Remember, he was manipulating her as an employee of 20th Century Fox. He had been hired by Fox and had promised them that HE would be personally responsible for making sure she would get SGTG finished. I think in his own little mind, he was suffering of some sort of self agrandizing fantasy. He was convinced that if he could get Monroe to the studio and make her finish the movie, that he would be lauded as the greatest psychiatrist in Hollywood and that all of the rich and famous of Hollywood would flock to his door and he would them, by proxy, become famous himself. In the meantime, Marilyn, who had been spending more and more time with Joe and who had begun to come to the reality that she really didn't need psychotherapy but a real, loving relationship, and was beginning to get her life together, (if we believe that she and Joe were schedule to remarry, which I do because of how completely and deeply he was affected by her death), and the fact that she had made arrangements to start working in television, which she had been convinced before by Milton Greene to stay away from because she was a Silver Screen Star and too big for tv, and with her work at the actor's studio giving her more confidence to move on, etc, etc, I believe accounts that she was ready to get rid of Greenson and that Greenson, probably through Murray, had found this out. Greenson then, (and this is just conjecture on my part) convinced Murray to help him in a scheme because if not, if he goes, she goes (out of a job). The plan was to give Marilyn her regular enema, (which many females stars did back then to keep themselves cleaned out and as thin as possible), but the enema would be laced with Chloral Hydrate (which the autopsy couldn't figure out how it got into her system). Added to whatever else Marilyn was taking anyway, Nembutal, etc., she would slip into a very deep, coma-like state and Greenson would arrive just in time, after having been tipped off by Murray, and save Marilyn's life. That would indebt her to him to such a deep degree that she would not be able to fire him and he would be the hero-psychoanalyst who saved the world, saved the star, saved the picture, saved the studio. No one would be able to deny him anything. I even think that reports of him injecting something into her heart would make sense because even today, there are instances where patients are injected with adrenaline directly into their hearts when they stop beating. Adrenaline will start a heart beating again. But, since Marilyn didn't know that she was being tricked, she may have taken two or three Nembutal that night because she really needed or wanted to get a good rest. That may have been just enough to take her over the edge. Or, if Murray was involved, what if Greenson had left instructions with Murray as to how much CH to add to the enema and Murray screwed up the dosage and killed her. Either way, the two of them were in on it together and it ended up being just an accident perpetrated by an ego-maniacal deeply disturbed individual trying to further his own fame and fortune. What really needs to be done is a very lengthy and in-depth study of Greenson's whole life. Why he wanted to be a psychiatrist, how he got there and what happened to him after MM's died. Also, the explaination about Murray washing clothes after MM died, once Marilyn slipped into a coma, her body naturally expelled the remaining liquid and the bed was probably a mess. So the sheets were changed, the body moved, etc. That's why Clemens knew instantly that the scene was altered and that MM had't died from a suicied. Murray probably threw out the enema bag and the CH bottle in the trash that she supposedly had her nephew take away. That's why no evidence was found. Remember, even though it wasn't that long ago, police back then didn't have all of the forensic knowledge they have now. Today, they would have shut down the neighborhood and investigated everything. Sorry to go on and on, but I think I'm right on this one. Anyone else with an opinion, please add it. I'd love to hear it.



I'm absolutely on your side!

Posted by: Ultraviolet Mar 24 2008, 12:14 AM

I don't believe in that theory allmost a bit, allthough I agree that some sort of accident might have happened but not that way.
I just can't believe that Greenson was so disturbed or actually I don't believe that he was disturbed at all. And that he and Murray had a "plot", no way...

If Mrs. Murray threw the something in a wastebasket then why didn't she put all the dirty sheets and others to a big plastic bag and ask her nephew to take them as far as possible and cast away somewhere, or burn them? Why bother start washing them when the house was full of officials and police sergeants and medics? Strange.

Who stole her intestines from the laboratory?

The alleged plan in the above theory takes a huge risk of killing the person who is the object of that kind of sellfish game. Giving huge amount of drugs to a person and then making it look like she's been saved- too complicated. If Greenson wanted desperately to save his job with M, I'm sure he could have invented something else.

And, Marilyn certainly was not going to remarry the ever-boring Joe diMaggio, no matter how pragmatically important the man was for her during those times. Marilyn had had enough of his uneducated gloomy mind and only needed him as an old companion.


Posted by: abeautifulchild Mar 24 2008, 04:43 AM

QUOTE(missmarilyn @ Jan 26 2007, 06:40 PM) *
Well, I think it was either suicide or accidental suicide. We all know that she was depressed and prone to suicide, and she tried before but failed. But accidental suicide is different, she may have wanted to kill herself but she wanted to do something or say something to someone. But she took the multiple pills and overdosed. And it wasn't till later Eunice found her light bedroom still on, but no noise.

I'm not sure what to think but those two options are HIGHLY possible.


I completely agree with you. I also agree with the statement that she "wanted to die for the night" that someone mentioned earlier. She was probably feeling depressed that night, so she just wanted to escape into SLEEP and then live to fight another day, but by that time in her life she was taking so much medication at such high doses that she was not aware of what she was doing anymore. So that is my theory on the accidental death and thats the opinion I tend to lead towards most days. I think that the reason she was found with the phone in her hand was because she was trying to call someone, maybe a call for help, maybe not, when she fell into unconsciousness. I don't think it was staged.

I believe there is a slight possibility that it could have been intentional because really she was feeling abandoned because she now had no love life after her relationship with the Kennedy's was over (they dropped her, the bastards) she never had the children that she wanted and perhaps could not even have children anyway, her career wasn't exactly thriving and anyway she never really loved any of the films that she made or was going to make, she felt she had failed at her attempt to express her talent and be a serious actress, she bought her first house but alone, she felt that she was aging (although in my opinion she looked better than ever before and she was so beautiful at the time of her death), and then there are her suicide attempts before. And also the fact that she could have been a borderline or bipolar. I'm sorry but it is my opinion that you can never dismiss the suicide theory all together if you know for a fact that Marilyn had attempted suicide- and more than once- before. And to address the people who say, "Oh, well she didn't leave a note..." actually, most suicides don't leave a note... I'm not saying that that's my opinion as I mentioned before, but I think that it's possible. The statements that people make about Marilyn being in a good state of mind- which they support by the fact that she was going ahead with Something's Got To Give and that she just bought her first house ever and that she was planning for her future- aren't enough for me. And then there is the fact that most of her close friends and one of her husbands- such as Norman Rosten and Arthur Miller- believed that she did commit suicide and they spent quite a lot of time with her obviously. We know that what Marilyn wanted above all was to be loved. In the end it never happened for her. Maybe it could have but whether she commited suicide or it was accidental or not, she obviously didn't believe at that time that it ever would after what she had been through. She had an awful (personal) life and as Norman Rosten said it was awful that "the Love Goddess had to die for lack of it."

The fact is that whether it was suicide or not she was on the road to destruction mixing alcohol with pills like she did. In the end I think her body just had enough. She just took too much and it doesn't seem so glamourous but in my opinion it was just an accident. Maybe that final dose was the one that finally had the power to do her in. Perhaps, for once in Marilyn's life, the drama was absent...to quote Greenson (I'm doing a lot of quoting haha) it was "so simple and final and over..."

I don't believe in the murder theory whatsoever and I don't feel like writing a novel about it right now but I will just say that the Kennedy's way of "getting rid of her" was in my opinion, obviously the fact that they had cut her off much earlier than her death. They didn't need to murder her. They, well at least Jack, had experience in adultery and dropping women after he was through with them before, and he dealt with the gossip of his infidelity, but you did not see his other mistresses being murdered. And yes, although Marilyn was a much bigger star than those girls were, it still comes down to the same thing. Those other mistresses still had the capactity to "tell all" just as Marilyn was supposed to have said she would do. And anyway I believe they dismissed that as something said out of anger and bitterness if she really said it, but I really don't believe she would want to do that and be the one who would discredit a beloved American man muchless a President and embarass his family. The only cover-up as far as the Kennedy's were concerned was getting rid of the evidence of their affairs, I think.

As for the other theories that she was murdered by the mob I don't know about but I do feel they lack substantial evidence and anyway are sort of far-fetched. As for the Greenson/Murray murder theory I find it ridiculous. I still don't see what their motive would be; it doesn't make sense to me. For all his mistakes, I feel Greenson really wanted to help Marilyn. I also think that a lot of people just want to think that Marilyn was murdered because of who she was; an icon.


Just my opinion, sorry for rambling biggrin.gif
blushing.gif Gosh, I hope people don't yell at me for believing in the accidental theory haha

Posted by: Shirley Mar 24 2008, 08:19 PM

Well, I'd suggest Spoto's biography. He denies all those stories about Kennedys involved in Marilyn's death. A pity that lots of people still believe those nonsenses. Spoto tells that Slatzer was one of the firsts claiming he "knew" about Marilyn's affair with Jack and Bobby, then Mailer told about the affair in his book. By the way, Mailer later admitted it was all lies but he needed money and that's why he published that sensational story about Marilyn and Kennedys. As for doctor Greenson, he was a pseud psychiatrist, without any respect to Marilyn (never tried to stop her from taking pills at first place, his treatement caused only more psychological problems for Marilyn). NONE of real and educated psychiatrists would invite his own patient to his family, have psychotherapical sessions and eventually make his patient completely dependent on him! Greenson even told Marilyn which friends she should throw out of her life! He did that because all he wanted was to make Marilyn his own property he could control. He was a complete egoist, longing for a fame. You should read about his unproffesional works on his patients, giving secret details. It's absolutely unethical. And Murray was Greenson's stooge, a spy, she even hadn't finished a high school! It's very possible that it was Eunice who gave the fatal enema (she was told by Greenson) to Marilyn. Sure she wasn't qualified to do the medical enema and she overdosed drugs. It was a terrible accident. I believe Spoto's theory. in my opinion, it's the most reliable source. But well, lots of people tend to believe those cheap and sensational stories without evidence because that's more interesting to read than those more realistic ones.
Anyway, it's nice everyone's posting his opinion, it's very interesting to read!

Posted by: abeautifulchild Mar 24 2008, 09:10 PM

QUOTE(Shirley @ Mar 24 2008, 08:19 PM) *
Well, I'd suggest Spoto's biography. He denies all those stories about Kennedys involved in Marilyn's death. A pity that lots of people still believe those nonsenses. Spoto tells that Slatzer was one of the firsts claiming he "knew" about Marilyn's affair with Jack and Bobby, then Mailer told about the affair in his book. By the way, Mailer later admitted it was all lies but he needed money and that's why he published that sensational story about Marilyn and Kennedys. As for doctor Greenson, he was a pseud psychiatrist, without any respect to Marilyn (never tried to stop her from taking pills at first place, his treatement caused only more psychological problems for Marilyn). NONE of real and educated psychiatrists would invite his own patient to his family, have psychotherapical sessions and eventually make his patient completely dependent on him! Greenson even told Marilyn which friends she should throw out of her life! He did that because all he wanted was to make Marilyn his own property he could control. He was a complete egoist, longing for a fame. You should read about his unproffesional works on his patients, giving secret details. It's absolutely unethical. And Murray was Greenson's stooge, a spy, she even hadn't finished a high school! It's very possible that it was Eunice who gave the fatal enema (she was told by Greenson) to Marilyn. Sure she wasn't qualified to do the medical enema and she overdosed drugs. It was a terrible accident. I believe Spoto's theory. in my opinion, it's the most reliable source. But well, lots of people tend to believe those cheap and sensational stories without evidence because that's more interesting to read than those more realistic ones.
Anyway, it's nice everyone's posting his opinion, it's very interesting to read!


I disagree that he had no respect for Marilyn, he actually did try to wean her off pills. I think he truly wanted to save her as I had said before. But yes, you are completely right that he went about it all wrong. In either case he got way too involved which, yes, does make some (including myself) question his motives. Getting involved in her work was going way overboard at least. To quote Ralph Roberts, "He was having her get rid of the people who loved her and were devoted to her. No one sees a psychiatrist for hours and hours at a time and practically lives in their home. It's sick and abnormal."

And I would like to know as I have never seen any of the people who voice this opinion mention it- if Greenson/Murray killed her then what was their motive?

I'm not criticizing anyone's opinions, I'm just interested in what these people who believe that have to say (I've also never read Spoto)...

Posted by: jonas Mar 25 2008, 02:21 PM

QUOTE(abeautifulchild @ Mar 24 2008, 10:10 PM) *
I disagree that he had no respect for Marilyn, he actually did try to wean her off pills. I think he truly wanted to save her as I had said before. But yes, you are completely right that he went about it all wrong. In either case he got way too involved which, yes, does make some (including myself) question his motives. Getting involved in her work was going way overboard at least. To quote Ralph Roberts, "He was having her get rid of the people who loved her and were devoted to her. No one sees a psychiatrist for hours and hours at a time and practically lives in their home. It's sick and abnormal."

And I would like to know as I have never seen any of the people who voice this opinion mention it- if Greenson/Murray killed her then what was their motive?

I'm not criticizing anyone's opinions, I'm just interested in what these people who believe that have to say (I've also never read Spoto)...


Supposedly, the psychiatric community didn't approve of Greenson's approach to his patients.I read this a long time ago and apparently Marilyn wasn't the only patient he treated in this way.Greenson actually defended his "philosophy" when speaking to his peers and was snubbed and disregarded by many in the community as a result. Plus, he was heavily criticized for how he dealt with Marilyn.

Posted by: abeautifulchild May 19 2008, 01:46 AM

QUOTE(jonas @ Mar 25 2008, 02:21 PM) *
Supposedly, the psychiatric community didn't approve of Greenson's approach to his patients.I read this a long time ago and apparently Marilyn wasn't the only patient he treated in this way.Greenson actually defended his "philosophy" when speaking to his peers and was snubbed and disregarded by many in the community as a result. Plus, he was heavily criticized for how he dealt with Marilyn.



I still don't understand why bringing Marilyn into Greenson's home was a bad thing. She obviously enjoyed being around his family very much. She made friends with his son and daughter and attended parties hosted by Greenson. The Greensons were like the Strasbergs to Marilyn in a way: Being around them probably made Marilyn feel like she was a loved member of a family. That could only have eased her state of mind, couldn't it? I mean, I'd like to know why this approach was criticized so harshly when it didn't appear to do any harm to Marilyn.

Posted by: magda24 May 19 2008, 10:23 AM

QUOTE(abeautifulchild @ May 19 2008, 02:46 AM) *
I still don't understand why bringing Marilyn into Greenson's home was a bad thing. She obviously enjoyed being around his family very much. She made friends with his son and daughter and attended parties hosted by Greenson. The Greensons were like the Strasbergs to Marilyn in a way: Being around them probably made Marilyn feel like she was a loved member of a family. That could only have eased her state of mind, couldn't it? I mean, I'd like to know why this approach was criticized so harshly when it didn't appear to do any harm to Marilyn.

I was always thinking the same thing Alex. Even if Greenson's method wasn't generally accepted and somewhat controversial, then look at the advantages: Marilyn spending her evenings with happy, loving family than with for example leech Peter Lawford. Of course it was only a substitute of her own family but it was better than let Marilyn sit in her empty house, listening to Sinatra records and mixing pills with champagne.The hell with the rules .Perhaps she had at least couple sunny, merry evenings full of laughter and jokes.. I wish that for her.

Posted by: jonas May 20 2008, 02:42 AM

QUOTE(magda24 @ May 19 2008, 10:23 AM) *
I was always thinking the same thing Alex. Even if Greenson's method wasn't generally accepted and somewhat controversial, then look at the advantages: Marilyn spending her evenings with happy, loving family than with for example leech Peter Lawford. Of course it was only a substitute of her own family but it was better than let Marilyn sit in her empty house, listening to Sinatra records and mixing pills with champagne.The hell with the rules .Perhaps she had at least couple sunny, merry evenings full of laughter and jokes.. I wish that for her.



Yes, but whatever the reason, Greenson kept quiet after Marilyn's death. He didn't want to be bothered to talk about it. On the other hand, Murray gave various interviews. She may have contradicted herself at times, but she gave them. It almost sounds like Greenson sent her out to the wolves. Something like.."Deal with it Eunice!" Anyway, obeying rules can have its advantages. Maybe the world wouldn't be in the moral state it's in now if the world obeyed "the rules" a bit more.I mean, how can we blame politicians and their immorality for our shortcomings if we don't inculcate in them a desire to obey the rules from the time they're born?
Anyway, Greenson had an involvement,directly or indirectly, in Marilyn's death. His silence was "deafening" to say the least!

Posted by: Marilyn Fanatic May 20 2008, 06:23 AM

Have you heard Greenson's voice? In the documentary "Say Goodbye To The President",
he was recorded saying "I can't tell the whole story" and "Ask Bobby Kennedy". Now,
that film was banned here in the US for some time. Very suspicious.

I've always wondered why the issue of her bedroom being bugged is not ever mentioned
in the theories. If it was bugged, that would mean someone heard what happened in that
room the night she died. Evidence of the wires was found when actress Veronica Hamel
owned the home and did some renovations. I've seen a pic of the wires, and I wish I
could find it to post here.


Posted by: Tara May 20 2008, 04:41 PM

I don't think Greenson was good for Marilyn. I believe he tried to help her, but went about it the wrong way. I don't agree with Spoto's theory about how Marilyn died though, I think he went too far there. The whole thing of Marilyn looking for surrogate families was double-edged IMO. It made her feel safe, but it also kept her childlike and dependent. There was no way she could make up for her childhood, except by forming real, positive relationships. Some friends felt that Greenson kept her away from them.

Eunice might have hoped she could put across her side of the story by doing interviews, though she was so contradictory that it backfired. After Greenson died she seemed to become more candid. Greenson on the other hand didn't need the money, and his reputation might have suffered if he'd continued to associate himself with Marilyn after she died. He wrote a psychology book though where one of the case studies may have been based on her, though he always denied it.

Posted by: liza May 21 2008, 12:45 AM

Well actually , I begin to become sick of all the speculations.
We will never know what really happend that horrible lonely night with Marilyn.
For shure it is that it was a big tradegy that happened the 4th of august and NOT the 5th as they want us to believe.
personaly I think it was Greenson and Murray but they have kept theyre secret and now Marilyn goes on and on in history as a poor creature with too much pills and THATs what makes me sad all the time.

Posted by: abeautifulchild May 21 2008, 02:51 AM

It's actually kind of funny- no, not funny- ironic that most people off the street who have never read about monroe think she was murdered rather than died of an overdose. Everyone sort of has this common knowledge like, "Oh, she had an affair with the Kennedy brothers and they murdered her to keep her quiet-" but they know nothing about how the drugs were actually the cause of her death it seems like.

Posted by: jonas May 27 2008, 01:01 AM

The drugs may very well have been responsible for her death. Question is, how did they enter her body?Why the inconclusive autopsy report? Why the strange statements made by Greenson and Clemmons? Why did Murray contradict herself in two interviews given within a 20 -year span? Why was there no serious investigation done when everyone at the scene either felt that foul play had taken place or acted in a way which suggested that something needed to be hidden from public knowledge? Marilyn was taking various drugs,no doubt. She had tried to commit suicide previously,too. That doesn't mean she couldn't die by any other means.
Those hours before the police were actually called were so that Greenson and Murray could get their "version" ready. To save their own skins or someone else's? That's the question!

Posted by: SummerRaye Jun 12 2008, 06:14 AM

I'm a very new member and hate to say that I've been reading tons of books about this fantastic person (I've been a fan of her work for years but just started reading books and books on her) and found this website (yea!!) and also hate that here, in this sad area of the forum...
BUT
I lilt between murder and accidental. I do not believe that she killed herself on purpose...I also don't believe that she iingested anything to try to get attention and then accidentally died...I think that she possibly had no idea how much she had taken (with some drugs that help people sleep...they forget hours before hand. Sometimes people don't realize that they've taken pills...I had a personal experience where I took a sleeping pill, and it put my mind to sleep and not my body, and I ended up taking more, and that happened a couple of times over a period of 2 hours and I got deathly sick).

But I also dabble in the theory of her being murdered...I don't like reading about the fact that the house was bugged (WHERE ARE THOSE WIRE TAPPED TAPES?!?!?!) and I don't like the different versions of the night from various people, not just the two we have discussed in the previous posts. I don't see a motive...

I'll end my first post with who knows, who will know....

Posted by: Chrissie Feb 27 2009, 05:13 PM

I chose "Other" as I truly do not know.
It is clear to me through http://southernwingsaircraft.com/howmarilyndied.html and the autopsy report that she did not ingest pills, which is the easiest suicide route.
As for injections or enemas, what is the likelihood that Marilyn had these things on hand?
Is it plausible that her doctor gave her these things when she already had a prescription for the medications in pill form?
Marilyn was known to be a boozer and a pill-popper. If she had committed suicide, I think it would be safe to say she had been drinking before she made the decision to end her life. Thus, more liquid in her stomach. Does anyone know if a blood alcohol level test was done during the autopsy? Also, since she was a pill-popper, why the change in M.O.? Why would she choose to end her life through injection(s) or enema(s) when she could just take a few extra pills?
It's all very conflicting. There was most definately a cover-up and we'll never know exactly what the extent of it was.
Too many shady characters out to protect themselves.
Too many un-answered questions... or too many questions with nonsense answers.
Maybe one day something will bubble to the surface... a diary tucked away in a bookshelf, long forgotten, revealing the truth.
Until then we can pick and choose what we want to believe.

Posted by: tinily Nov 18 2010, 10:38 PM

Hello at all,
first, sorry if I write anything wrong, but I`m from germany and my english is not so good.

I don't think Marilyn was killed or it was an accident.
Many years I thought this. I couldn't believe that such a beautiful woman ends with her life.

I saw movies where people said, that she had more Nembutal in her body that you could kill 12 horses and nothig was found in her stomach. No fingerprints wasn't found in her house...and so on. All mysterious.

But now I think that's bosh.

She was sad, depressive. I think i know she has felt.
To be pretty and a star makes you happy for a while, but not for life.
If you have no family, no one who cares for you, if you wish to have a child, but it never happen.

The man/men you love, don't love you anymore, you are alone, than you think: what am I living for?
I think she thought that she had no future.
She was the alltime sexsymbol for the filmindustrie.
And maybe she was right. She had no bright spot.

I know by now that pills in short time can solved in a stomach and I think the story with the lost fingerprints is just a story.

Why should Kennedy or any other kill Marilyn? Why?

It's very sad but I think Marilyn, Norma Jeane, don't wanted to live anymore and I can feel with her.

Posted by: tinily Nov 18 2010, 11:07 PM

I've forgotten something.....

Although you take pills to die, or you jump from a house, you WILL die, but when the moment comes and you (your body) feels "I die", than you will fight for your live.
You can ask any doctor, but thats the normal instinktive reaction from any creature.

And it's normal that Marilyn gripped her phone at that moment. There is nothing mysterious.

Why should her housekeeper or doctor wanted to kill her??? Stop with it please!

Let her please rest in peace and don't make people mad.

I don't think that Marilyn would like, that anyone speak so bad about people that she probably loved and who were good to her.

Posted by: Nightwatcher Nov 30 2010, 09:07 AM

Based on everything I've read about Marilyn's death, I will never believe that she killed herself. I won't ever believe that her death was an accident either. She was murdered, and it was very obviously covered up. Marilyn made a huge mistake in telling anyone about her red diary. Telling people that she was going to hold a Press Conference the Monday following her death didn't help matters either.

Posted by: Tiina Dec 3 2010, 08:54 PM

I can't remember whether I voted or not, but if I could vote now, I'd vote for accidental overdose although I think it could have been a suicide as well.

There was a time when I firmly believed she was murdered by her housekeeper and Dr. Greenson. Then I changed my mind and I believed they killed her accidentally. But that was years ago and my opinion has changed as I've read more and more about Marilyn.

This is just my opinion and I base my views on what people who know her personally have said about her as a person, her mental state and her behaviour and also my own personal experiences with some issues Marilyn had troubles with that I do too.

We all know Marilyn had a lot of emotional problems because of her unstable childhood and I think it has to be noted that inheritable mental illnesses such as psychosis, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia ran strong in her family - her gradmother was psychotic and had manic depression which is same as bipolar disorder and then of course her mom was also psychotic as well as schizophrenic - I'd say that Marilyn herself suffered of a pretty severe depression throughtout her life, so she was more than just a "sad and lonely girl" as they say, I think she had depressive disorder at least and it shouldn't be belittled, it's a real illness. I also think that there is a possibility that she might have been bipolar which I will explain more about a little further.

Marilyn suffered of severe insomnia; I know what it does to a person because I suffer of it as well and I can easily say it's the root of all kinds problems in the psyche and unbalance in life and as much as I love Marilyn, I'd say she was already an unbalanced person (which was absolutely not her own fault; like I said, her problems were mostly caused by her background, genes and also the tough business she was in), so I'm sure insomnia worsened her mental state and in the end things were pretty bad. The effects of insomnia definitely showed in her working - not in the quality of her work, but how she worked because she was constantly late and had problems with her memory and therefore couldn't remember her lines etc.

Then there was the "pill popping". It's been said Marilyn took those pills like vitamin tablets. Susan Strasberg said that at the time, nobody knew about the dangers of taking one too many sleeping pills because what the doctor ordered was supposed to be very good for you and Marilyn took pills to fall asleep as well as to wake up, didn't she? Her doses got increasingly bigger and bigger throughtout the years because after she had been taken some amount of pills to fall asleep, like say two or whatever, those two did nothing to her and she had to keep taking more and more to get some effect out of them. To make matters worse, Susan said that sometimes Marilyn forgot how many she had taken and that was of course extremely dangerous as it would be to anybody. Here's a very sad moment from Susan's book that really caught my attention:

"Another late night after the show, I was puttering around in the kitchen when I heard sounds from the hallway. A white figure was crawling down the hallway on its hands and knees. It was Marilyn. She was only going across the way from my brother's bedroom to my parents', but she was moving slowly, sluggishly, on all fours. Her progress seemed interminable. "Lee, Lee..." she whimpered. She had taken too many pills again. She would forget and take more and then remember, too late."

Susan also said Marilyn drank excessively and as a person she was "unpredictable, explosive, impulsive, easily distracted." and that was already in the mid 1950's. Now, we all have our good qualities as well as bad ones and Marilyn was only a human being and I bare that in mind as I'm writing this, but to me that doesn't sound like a very stable person. And the pills and the habit of drinking sure didn't help her already unstable mind and life.

To me the image of Marilyn is, while she was a smart, kind and witty woman with courage, willpower and talent, she had an extremely dark, sad, depressive side to her too. It could easily be an indication of her being bipolar. Marilyn could have inherited the illness from her grandmother (I believe it was Spoto who brought that up in his book as well). That's only me guessing but whatever it was, as Susan described, Marilyn was pretty moody in real life, but for the public she put on her best act and they adored her to death, like we still do. Her character was like the colours black and white. To the public she was the golden girl; always smiling and happy. She was beautiful, famous, rich and loved by her fans but as in the case of Marilyn, none of those things bring true happiness to a person and certainly not for a person like Marilyn who had had such a sad childhood without her real parents, having to go to an orphanage and being a victim of sexual assault among countless other sad things that would make any person an unstable adult. Everybody loved her but where did Marilyn belong to? Nowhere and no one. I bet that in some ways, all the glitz and glamour made her feel even worse inside because you'd think she had everything a person can ask for in life, yet she was so terribly lost and alone, depressed and having to play the role of Marilyn Monroe probably only emphasized her misery. That's why it was such a big shock to the public when she died because they had no idea what was really going on. Like that at times she wished that she was dead. She was also quoted to have said to Paula and Susan (somewhere in Susan's book): "If I didn't have my work, I could die." or something like "If it wasn't for the work, I could die right away." I couldn't find the exact quote but it's somewhere there as well as lots of other very disturbing quotes that I think give a strong impression on just how depressed she really was. If she was generally anything, she was generally miserable.

So, yeah, that's all I want to say about that thing. In my opinion it was most probably just an accident of taking too many pills but since Marilyn was troubled and had tried to kill herself before by taking an overdose, who knows, maybe she really wanted to escape and to end her life.

Whatever happened, she won't be forgotten. I just wish the general public could know about her real self. I sometimes feel people forget she was even a real person once. Well, Norma Jeane was throb.gif , Marilyn Monroe wasn't. Marilyn Monroe was and is a fantasy.

Posted by: Ultraviolet Jan 7 2011, 09:34 PM

A really beautiful, wise and understanding writing on Marilyn, Tiina !

Posted by: TwinklingStar Jan 23 2011, 04:10 AM

I believe that she was murdered. I'm stuck between the whole Greenson/Murray theory as well as the Kennedy theory. However, the words of Eunice Murray caught on tape of "why at my age must i still cover this up" seems to speak volumes to me. Personally, I think that its possible she involved with a setup with Greenson and wanted to come clean finally.

On a somewhat unrelated but ironic note, how strange would it be if Eunice Murray administered her enema and then in 2009 a Dr. murray administers the lethal overdose of a sleeping aid to Michael Jackson....weird!

Posted by: jinjoe Jan 23 2011, 12:44 PM

she was murdered due to her involvement with the kennedy's & sam giancana gave the order to shut her up for good.

i dont believe the suicide theory for one bit, total bullshit, just like lee harvey oswald being the lone gunman.

time to take off the rose tinted glasses

Posted by: Shine84 Apr 27 2011, 01:08 PM

I agree with Nightwatcher and TwinklingStar. I believe she was murdered.
Eunice Murray, Robert Greenson, Peter Lawford....the Security who saw R. Kennedy landing with his helicopter at the Fox-studios one day before her death...why did Pat Newcomb dissapear in England?! Why did Murray wash these sheets in the middle of the night/early morning?!? Because she threw up? Oh come on!
She wanted to do a press conference on Monday, and "they" wanted to keep her quiet, maybe she freaked out and everything went out of control!?!
My opinion is, that they covered everything up. She had so many drugs/medication in her blood, that she mustīve been dead long before she swallowed ALL of them. I believe she was unconcious before they did an enema to her....
"Ask Bobby Kennedy".....

I wish I could write it in German here, because my English is not so good :-(

Posted by: MarilynIloveU Jul 28 2011, 08:33 PM

I think she was murdered for sure. I believe that Greenson or Murray administered the lethal dose of Nembutal. I think Greenson was suspicious from the start, if only someone had got him away from her.

Posted by: sugarkane20 Jul 28 2011, 09:40 PM

Why would he want her dead?

Posted by: Kevin Jul 28 2011, 10:00 PM

This is the only time anyone will ever hear me comment on this "murder". She made a mistake, she was human...I used to be an alcoholic so I know what its like, not knowing or remembering what I have done the previous day. I believe it was an accident and I believe it was only covered up to protect her...even though I never trusted Greenson or Murray as far as I could throw them. And as far as the Kennedy's are concerned, yes it is possible. It is also possible that aliens landed in LA and probed her to death. However even if the Kennedy's did do something this stupid, I am a firm believer in Karma and as both died within a 4 year period from each other...case solved and they both got what they deserved. If anyone "killed" her, it would have been Greenson and/or Murray since they were both in her will. They had the most to gain, even more than the Kennedy's.

Again, this is only my opinion, I would love to know the truth but as most of the people that were involved are either dead or only saying stuff to just get their 15 minutes in the sun. While I am thinking about it, why do people celebrate her death? I celebrate her birthday, not her death. I beleive in celebrating a persons life, not the day they died.

Anyway, you know I love you all, you are all my friends and I respect and understand all of your opinions and comments, regardless if they match mine or not. I am a fair person who believes in respecting the beliefs and opinions of others. smile1.gif

Take care... bye1.gif

Posted by: MarilynIloveU Jul 29 2011, 07:06 PM

QUOTE(sugarkane20 @ Jul 28 2011, 09:40 PM) *
Why would he want her dead?


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QUOTE(Kevin @ Jul 28 2011, 10:00 PM) *
If anyone "killed" her, it would have been Greenson and/or Murray since they were both in her will. They had the most to gain, even more than the Kennedy's.



Kevin if she accidentally killed herself (which is possible), then why didn't someone mention it years later? I mean when the murder theories started?

I don't believe Greenson or Murray cared about her, certainly not enough to cover up an accidental over dose. They were hiding something but they were gaining from it, probably financially.

Personally I think Greenson always planned to either murder her or blackmail her. I think that his plans were cut short by Kennedy, who paid him to kill her before he put his own plan in to full swing. But whatever happened, I just have this gut instinct that Greenson was up to no good from the start.

Posted by: Kevin Jul 29 2011, 11:48 PM

QUOTE(MarilynIloveU @ Jul 29 2011, 01:06 PM) *
Kevin if she accidentally killed herself (which is possible), then why didn't someone mention it years later? I mean when the murder theories started?

I don't believe Greenson or Murray cared about her, certainly not enough to cover up an accidental over dose. They were hiding something but they were gaining from it, probably financially.

Personally I think Greenson always planned to either murder her or blackmail her. I think that his plans were cut short by Kennedy, who paid him to kill her before he put his own plan in to full swing. But whatever happened, I just have this gut instinct that Greenson was up to no good from the start.


Well, lets put it this way, when LAPD loses a dead body (or two, or three smile1.gif) back in 1957, 1962 and 1979 and heck probably a few dozen more since the 70's, along with paperwork from as many non-celebrity deaths...they lose credibilty (IMHO-also this comes from a friend of mine, whom was a cop in LA for 30 years and since retired with honours) on anything they release to the press, and that the coroner's office, like in Vegas are completely inept at doing a decent job of filing. The Kennedy's might have been involved, again (if so) Karma is a b@#$h and they both found that out the hard way. smile1.gif If they indeed had something to do with it. Ralph Greenson was a dirt bag...100%. I agree. I believe that 99% of the people in her 'inner circle' (except family) during the last 3 years of her life were gold-diggin' scum-bucket morons. Ha! wink3.gif lol

To make a long story short and pretty much make this my last post on this topic, unless somebody can prove either with documents, photos or a recording of somebody actually saying "she was killed, here's the proof, look!" or "I did it because Ralph Greenson/the Kennedy's threatened or paid me too".

This is why I like to keep away from topics like this. I would rather think of her life, accoplishments and her humanity.

I still in my heart, deep down, believe it was an accident. But again that is only my opinion and does not express the views and opinions of ES, other members, moderators and owners. I had to add that. smile1.gif

Gee, I need to stop reading this stuff...its too depressing man. cry.gif cry.gif crybaby.gif crybaby.gif crybaby.gif

Posted by: jonas Jul 30 2011, 10:02 PM

Kevin, I can see your point but ask yourself this? How many people have made money by going on documentaries and talk shows and hinting that Marilyn was killed. The Jeanne Carmens, Robert Slatzers, etc,etc...whatever! I confess I believe she was killed, others believe in suicide and what not... but what's it worth? It's splitting hairs! The debate could go on for eternity.
However, if this problem had been dealt with accordingly and dare I say it... "morally" at the time... then the death of the person all of us here admire wouldn't have made so many fake husbands,lovers and best friends rich from TV appearances! These people have made a mint-believe me- though most of them are dead now. And don't be surprised if soon some new book or documentary comes out dealing with the subject. And more people will be cashing in!
The death in itself may never be solved,but the behavior of the people surrounding Marilyn suggests there was a cover up of something. A cover up of murder or something else we may never know.But something exquisite definitely went on there. You have neighbors, police officers, a housekeeper, doctors and the silence of others insinuating at it.
Basically, when these people went public with these statements, they should have been interrogated further and ,if by chance, they were shooting the bull for their fifteen minutes of fame, then they should have been punished severely.

Posted by: Kevin Jul 30 2011, 10:16 PM

QUOTE(jonas @ Jul 30 2011, 04:02 PM) *
Kevin, I can see your point but ask yourself this? How many people have made money by going on documentaries and talk shows and hinting that Marilyn was killed. The Jeanne Carmens, Robert Slatzers, etc,etc...whatever! I confess I believe she was killed, others believe in suicide and what not... but what's it worth? It's splitting hairs! The debate could go on for eternity.
However, if this problem had been dealt with accordingly and dare I say it... "morally" at the time... then the death of the person all of us here admire wouldn't have made so many fake husbands,lovers and best friends rich from TV appearances! These people have made a mint-believe me- though most of them are dead now. And don't be surprised if soon some new book or documentary comes out dealing with the subject. And more people will be cashing in!
The death in itself may never be solved,but the behavior of the people surrounding Marilyn suggests there was a cover up of something. A cover up of murder or something else we may never know.But something exquisite definitely went on there. You have neighbors, police officers, a housekeeper, doctors and the silence of others insinuating at it.
Basically, when these people went public with these statements, they should have been interrogated further and ,if by chance, they were shooting the bull for their fifteen minutes of fame, then they should have been punished severely.


Didn't I just say this Jonas? blink.gif

There will always be a division of members when it comes to this topic, all I said was that the LAPD and most officials are indeed, brain-dead and lack paper work skills. Also this is MY opinion, shared by some and not by others (obviously such as yourself). However this is why I never broached this topic until a few days ago...because the majority feels otherwise. This is my belief, like it or not. wink3.gif I have been a member for almost 8 years and so lately I have been reading topics and posting because 1. There isn't any work in Vegas. 2. I am too ill to work 3. My adoration for MM (which is why I joined to begin with) and 4. Because I missed this place and I missed my friends. Normally I leave topics such as this alone (for obvious reasons). biggrin.gif

Also know that I admire, respect and adore MM as much as anybody else here (maybe more, maybe less). Bottom line, If everybody felt and thought the same way...life would be boring. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

...'nough said.bye1.gif

Posted by: MarilynFan#1 Jun 24 2012, 06:20 PM

I cannot believe that after all these years some ppl still believe she comitted suicide or that it was accidental! There is enough proof at this point that we all know is wasnt suicide or accidental!! We all know that believing anything that Mr. Peter Lawford said is silly. If you havent forgotten he was Jack and Bobby's little kiss ass, and would do most anything they wanted of him. And also don't forget he was married to Pat Kennedy and would do ANYTHING to protect the Kennedy name, because he was married to one. Dr. Greenson took his orders from Bobby that night I am quite sure. And listening to John Minor? How naieve can some people get? Minor and Greenson were close, they were really good friends and also associates. Minor would do almost anything to protect his friends reputation and the truth from getting out to the public because he was told to do so, plus he had to to protect his own career and reputation as well. Murray has changed her story so much we all know shes covering for someone or someone's. And years later admitted that Bobby was at Marilyns. The investigation into Marilyn's death? Yea what investigation? There was no real investigation!! The autopsy was doctored, Evidence removed and files replaced with rewritten files and we all know this is true. The file on Marilyn is so tiny you cant even call it a file. Dr. Greenson openly admitted that there were things he couldnt tell ppl about Marilyns death, and that he was in a very rough position. And you know what he said? Talk To Bobby Kennedy. Bobby was involved 100%. And im sure that Jack must of new of what was going on as well. And what of her phone records? They disappeared the morning of her death. Sound odd to people? Well it should. Everything was doctored and covered up to hide any Kennedy involvement. And who has the power to keep a case closed and underwraps all these years? Even today? The mafia sure wouldnt, and neither would a simple doctor. And her studio? Come on give me a break, they couldnt do that either. It leaves only 1 suspect. The Kennedy's and there connections Period. Im sorry to burst peoples bubbles but Marilyn did NOT commit suicide and her death was NOT accidental either. There maybe be some ppl out there who still refuse to see the light and truth of Marilyn's demise. And thats there own opinion, but opinion is opinion and fact is fact. She was murdered and that is a fact. Marilyn deserves that Truth be told and the truth of her death revealed once and for all. She deserves justice smile1.gif

Posted by: mmmanda Feb 11 2013, 11:51 PM

I actually don't know what to believe... I mean, it's obvious her state of mind wasn't too well, so it IS possible she intentionally ended her own life. She was, by no means, mentally ill, but she did have a traumatic childhood and exhibited many signs and symptoms of borderline personality disorder. On the other hand, she was taking so many pharmaceuticals... you know how that usually turns out, especially back then.

Then, of course, there's always the Illuminati to blame it on... They promise fame and fortune and then kill you off when they see fit. But, I won't get into that wink3.gif

For now, I'll just assume her death was an accident (caused by pharmaceuticals) until more evidence is released.

Posted by: Margherita Feb 13 2013, 12:55 PM

Are there still people alive who might know ?

Posted by: Eva May 20 2013, 07:40 PM

QUOTE(Margherita @ Feb 13 2013, 12:55 PM) *
Are there still people alive who might know ?


The only important witness that is still alive today and who has any credibility is Pat Newcomb, although i do sometimes wonder if she will ever set the story straight about Marilyn's last day alive.

When i first read a book about Marilyn's life and what she had achieved throughout her career i would never thought for a minute that this woman would ever kill herself, but over the year's i've thought more and more about her mother's mental disturbances stemming from her family background and not having a proper mother and father to bring her up, also all the terrible things Norma Jeane was most likely subjected to as a young child in those care homes i would now say ''yes she would of been capable of committing suicide, but if you look back on how she was in the last years of her life you can see the downward spiral with what was happening around her the drug addiction the insomnia, her failed relationships and then being fired from her last movie, even reports from Greenson's own children that Marilyn was seriously depressed complaining about her age and how everyone around her just wanted to use her!!!

And what about her therapist Dr Greenson and Mrs Murray, i never really understood why Marilyn was constantly dependent on Greenson even though it looked like he was trying to gain control over his client, i also don't believe that Dr Greenson had hit Marilyn after being called back early from his trip i think she actually slipped in the shower as she was drugged up on her meds? if he had hurt Marilyn then i think Pat would of known about the incident and would of reported him, so i don't think he was harming her or trying to gain control over her in that way.

Could it of been an accidental OD the amount of drugs was too large for it to have been an accident had she taken the pills over an amount of time, a few pills at a time, she would have passed out long before she could finish them all so for me accidental overdose in this case doesn't seem possible?

Why i don't go by the conspiracy theories like being murdered by the Kennedy's, the needle injections and enema's etc, i just don't think that could of happened to such a famous star, also how would the Kennedy's of lived with the guilt of killing such a lovely actress that never really hurt anyone when she was alive, i do feel the day before Marilyn had died it was a premeditated suicide the way she went about getting the drugs before she had used them all?

Posted by: mberton May 24 2013, 12:53 AM

I believe Mona Rae Miracle. Marilyn's death was simply a tragic accident. From an interview:

'But I do not subscribe to any of these murder or suicide theories or her supposed affair with President Kennedy. None of it is true. It was an accident. She had so many appointments booked. The day after she died she was going to see producers and then a lawyer to change her will.

'And I know she was planning on remarrying Joe. He was really the love of her life. They knew what they wanted out of life at that point and they could have made it work.'

IMO, if anyone is to blame it is her doctors who did not keep track of each other's prescriptions.

Posted by: Margherita May 31 2013, 04:09 PM

juggle.gif


Posted by: Mara Aug 11 2013, 04:52 PM

Overall..... I don't think it matters. If she was murdered and what's documented about it is true, practically all the evidence has been burned. Most of the people in question are dead. And those who are still alive, aren't saying anything about it. In the meantime, we're here reading books on the numerous scenarios in which Marilyn, inevitably, dies. Is anyone else sick of this? I mean, here I am, reading this book in which Marilyn was killed by the Kennedys, killed by the mob, killed by her doctor, or she committed suicide because of (insert numerous reasons here), or it was accidental because she or someone else didn't know about the dosage and reactions between drugs.

I mean, I want to know, I want some closure because I think that although Marilyn had her faults, she was a pretty decent person whose death is shrouded in mystery. But how do you find the truth if no one else can? Isn't this just f*cking morbid? Hundreds of books describing how she dies the moments before her death. And each one provides absolutely no closure because there's another book coming out next month that's saying "That one's wrong!"

I think it's sad that she's dead, but I think what's even sadder is that we can't make out the details of her life, and because of it, are unable to let her die....

Posted by: Margherita Aug 12 2013, 04:52 PM


Many of the books apppearing every third month may be only for cash - but I'm sure there has been serious investigation on her death, investigation into citizen's death, but it can't be revealed. So a lot of people have known and still know excactly how and why she died but it's not public. Not yet.


Posted by: Mara Aug 13 2013, 03:00 PM

I think so too. Though like others, I'm torn between accidental and murder, partly because I'm trying to keep a level head. You bring up murder to anyone in regards to Marilyn and they look at you like your nuts, which I can understand somewhat. If Marilyn was murdered there's someone to blame, if she did it to herself it hurts people, and if it was an accident it's frustrating because it's no one's fault. Though I guess there's still room for blame depending on, a) Why Marilyn committed suicide, and, b) Exactly how was it an accident.

Basically, it has a connotation; if you believe she was murdered, you're in denial that she killed herself.

I hope that it gets resolved someday. Though that's probably just wishful thinking on my part....

Posted by: Celia Aug 19 2013, 02:57 PM

QUOTE(Nightwatcher @ Nov 30 2010, 10:07 AM) *
Based on everything I've read about Marilyn's death, I will never believe that she killed herself. I won't ever believe that her death was an accident either. She was murdered, and it was very obviously covered up. Marilyn made a huge mistake in telling anyone about her red diary. Telling people that she was going to hold a Press Conference the Monday following her death didn't help matters either.



You should know all that theory ( red diary), The Kennedys, etc, was made up by Robert Slazter, a man who invented he had been married to her and had just two pics with her. None of the friends of Marilyn ever heard of that diary. It simply didnīt exist. There are too many people trying to get attention and/ or money in the sake of Marilyn. If I were you , I wouldnīt belive everything I read.

Posted by: Margherita Aug 21 2013, 06:23 PM

QUOTE(Celia @ Aug 19 2013, 04:57 PM) *
You should know all that theory ( red diary), The Kennedys, etc, was made up by Robert Slazter, a man who invented he had been married to her and had just two pics with her. None of the friends of Marilyn ever heard of that diary. It simply didnīt exist. There are too many people trying to get attention and/ or money in the sake of Marilyn. If I were you , I wouldnīt belive everything I read.


Actually Robert Slatzer was not the only person who had heard about the red diary or Marilyn making notes of all kinds of things she heard, a lot of people talked about her doing it and also about her diary, who cares whether it was red or other color. What Slatzer and Carmen told were probably based on things also they had heard or read after Marilyn had died, so they can be skipped in this case - though it is not yet completely proved that Slatzer never contacted Marilyn, let's say by a phone, and Marilyn could have considered him as a tedious fan, therefore not wanting to have anything to do with him etc.

In theory, Slatzer COULD have had snapshots of Marilyn, taken during some short acquaintance they may have had years ago, then vanished them, maybe accidentally or maybe in a state of anger. But this is just speculating, probably Slatzer was a full blodied fraud.

Marilyn and the Kennedys was a rumour that was spreading around spring and summer of -62, not Slatzer's invention - after Marilyn died, many other people wrote accounts based on that rumour and many of them claimed the rumours were based on facts, that Marilyn did have something going on with the Bros.

After Marilyn's death, Slatzer kept silent for 10 years, then wrote his book which's many issues are based on stories he heard had been circulating among people who had known Marilyn or had heard about things concerning her death - Slatzer put them together - and why he decided to add the detail that he had been also married with Marilyn, - probably of personal reasons.
Many of the stories he told about Marilyn's last summer, like that they had been driving the Pacific Coast highway a lot and that Marilyn had told that "Robert Kennedy promised to marry me" are most likely Slatzer's fantasy - but many things he writes in his books can be found in various other books and accounts and magazine articles, told by people who hadn't read Slatzer's book or heard about him.

Posted by: brandonheidrick Sep 25 2013, 07:50 PM

Greenson's brother-in-law was Marilyn's lawyer. Greenson invited a patient to live with his family, which is unethical. Greenson planted a spy in Marilyn's home. Marilyn had originally thought of returning to New York to live, but Greenson pushed her to buy a home in LA so she'd stay close to him. He also started cutting people that were close to Marilyn out of her life. He wanted Paula and Pat Newcomb fired. Greenson went on Fox's payroll. He also suggested his good friend Weinstein become producer for SGTG. The man had an unbelievable ego and was using her and manipulating her to better himself! He made her dependent on him. He also recorded some of their therapy sessions. Just think ... if she was having any sort of relationship with the Kennedy men, and she mentioned it in therapy and it was recorded ... if someone got those tapes of her privately discussions with her Dr. This would be a powerful weapon! Even if someone THOUGHT they existed. Marilyn had fired Eunice a couple times, but Eunice really wouldn't leave. Marilyn never called her by her first name either, just Mrs. Murray. She called her psychiatrist Romeo and Romey.

Marilyn would never have gone public with an affair. No matter how good her PR skills, Marilyn would not have been able to spin it to make herself look good in public opinion. The country loved Jackie Kennedy and Marilyn would have come off as a home-wrecker even if she was a partial victim. I doubt she'd throw her reputation away out of being scorned.

But here's something no one else has mentioned. Marilyn's political opinions were far left. Arthur Miller's views had rubbed off on her. Her recently released FBI files show that Marilyn had showed far left views while engaging in dinner conversation with Robert Kennedy. She challenged him. Also, someone in her entourage reported to the FBI all of her actions while in Mexico. She met with known-communists, namely Frederick Vanderbilt Field. She showed romantic interest in Jose Bolanos. Now who in Marilyn's small circle would be informing the FBI of Marilyn's business in Mexico? The FBI files do have some information wrong. They have Eunice's name as "Eunice Churchill" instead of "Eunice Murray". Eunice's brother-in-law, a communist that lived in Mexico was named "Churchill Murray".

Why was the FBI so afraid of people holding communist views and far left political beliefs?

So here you have a huge movie star with ties and connections to communism, the Kennedy family, and mafia associates.

Why did Joe DiMaggio ban her "friends" from the funeral, and have a life-long hatred for the Kennedy family? Why did Joe hate his former friend Sinatra and blame him for contributing to Marilyn's death?

So much to process. I don't believe she was in the state of mind to intentionally kill herself. I think Greenson and Murray played a huge part in her death.

Posted by: MarilynIloveU Oct 10 2013, 07:59 PM

If she felt anything like I do right now, which I'm certain she did at times (I have BPD and believe probably did Marilyn did too), then suicide after 36 years of feeling like shit is very possible.

However in truth I think she was murdered by Greenson, I despise that man he was a prize bastard in my opinion. Whether it was under instruction from the Kennedy's or someone else, or maybe he had an infatuation with her and couldn't handle the idea that maybe she'd get together with Joe again, who knows.

Posted by: Zebo Oct 12 2013, 03:12 PM

I voted it was an accident--a kind of slow, careless suicide, if you will. She didn't deliberately do it, but had become sloppy, down, absent-minded, nonchalant. It was only a matter of time, the writing was on the wall. If she was murdered, it really was the most pointless murder ever. Frankly I can't believe people even believe that theory, but then again there are people who believe Bigfoot married Jackie Onassis and is living on Jupiter, so there's that.

Posted by: MarilynIloveU Oct 13 2013, 12:42 AM

It would have been hard for her to overdose herself on an enema wouldn't it? I mean it appears she had no trace of pills in her stomach.

I have to say it is very hard to overdose and kill yourself, so deaths this way are not as easy as people think (purposely or not).

Posted by: Alanma Oct 13 2013, 01:25 PM

Enemas were a popular fad at the time, amazingly, as a way of losing weight! The idea was that nutrients would be more directly absorbed into the system, so avoiding the build of fat in the tissues. That same property of quick absorbtion would obviously aid the effect of a drug, or lead to a normal dose becoming an over-dose.
Enemas could be self-administered, but did not Mrs Murray state that she did the Honours for Marilyn on occasion ?

Posted by: Margherita Oct 16 2013, 10:57 AM

Read what Peter Brown and Pattie Barham write about her death and who ( maybe ) did it and why, in their interview of ex-CIA-worker in the book "Marilyn, the last take".



Posted by: Eva Oct 16 2013, 03:31 PM

Enemas could of been self-administered, but to ask her house maid to do this does sounds very personal to have someone who Marilyn was not really that close too? Didn't Marilyn want Eunice to leave her employ and not come back after her vacation, also the last cheque Marilyn had signed for on the last day?

We here all sorts of theories on Marilyns death some make good stories, and others make scandalous reading all what these publishers are in it for?

Posted by: MarilynIloveU Oct 20 2013, 02:00 AM

Well, if she was already out of it and had trouble self administering it, she may not of had a choice but to ask that Eunice (who I also hate).

Posted by: Celia Oct 25 2013, 05:29 PM

I saw a documentary where Mrs. Murray says Marilyn was very quite that day, and that she didnīt think she killed herself intentionally but it was rather an accident.
My question is: If Marilyn was so quite the whole day. why did Mrs. Murray, as she also claimed, called Dr. Greenson in the afternoon, because Marilyn was so disturbed and needed therapy? It doesnīt make sense.
I have the feeling this time she is saying the truth when she states that Marilyn was very quite. But then, it would be false that Dr. Greenson had to be called.
I tend to think it was an accident. But, really, there are too many strange details in the whole story. Maybe what happened to her is similar to what happened to Michael Jackson. The doctor went too far and killed her unintentionally, but of course, then they had to cover this up. Mrs. Murray was friends with him, and Dr. Engelberg may have helped too.

Posted by: MarilynIloveU Oct 29 2013, 11:35 PM

Being disturbed doesn't necessarily mean she was hysterical. It's possible Murray meant Marilyn was unusually quiet.

Posted by: Celia Oct 30 2013, 06:18 PM

QUOTE(MarilynIloveU @ Oct 29 2013, 11:35 PM) *
Being disturbed doesn't necessarily mean she was hysterical. It's possible Murray meant Marilyn was unusually quiet.


What I mean is that if a person is very quite, as Murray stated, there is no use in calling a doctor. I know what you mean. But, people call doctors when they observe there is something very wrong. And if she was very quite, I wonder what Murray observed in Marilyn in order to call her doctor. Another possibility of course would be the Marilyn herself demanded it. But I remember having read the opposite.
Anyway, I am not saying that MM was murdered. I tend to think it was an accident, but sometimes one reads things that make you think. I just found this fact weird.

Posted by: Jules Nov 1 2013, 04:24 AM

I think it was murder. I'd say I'm about 80% sure of it. I don't buy the suicide thing and I think the whole situation is too sketchy to be considered an accident. For a while, I thought it was an accident, but some of the stuff is just too strange. I'm leaning towards Greenson being a key player.

Will we ever know for sure!? "Possible suicide" isn't an acceptable COD by today's standard. How long until we do reach a moment of real and final closure? Until I'm an old lady in 50-something years? I can wait, but I'd rather not. Will we have to wait until everyone that may know something is dead before the truth really comes out? If I ever have a lot of money someday, it's going towards a full blown investigation and reevaluation, because there have been days when I just sit there and stare at my TV's guide screen and see another conspiracy theory doc on MM's death and I say "why can't we just get the truth already!?"

I feel the truth does exist somewhere out there, and they're waiting up people "don't care" as much anymore. Problem is, people care more now than they ever did.

Posted by: MarilynIloveU Nov 1 2013, 01:20 PM

QUOTE(Celia @ Oct 30 2013, 05:18 PM) *
What I mean is that if a person is very quite, as Murray stated, there is no use in calling a doctor. I know what you mean. But, people call doctors when they observe there is something very wrong. And if she was very quite, I wonder what Murray observed in Marilyn in order to call her doctor. Another possibility of course would be the Marilyn herself demanded it. But I remember having read the opposite.
Anyway, I am not saying that MM was murdered. I tend to think it was an accident, but sometimes one reads things that make you think. I just found this fact weird.


To be honest Murray is too untrustworthy. My bet would be she would have called Greenson over something minor. In a normal circumstance what you are saying about calling a doctor only when something is very wrong fits but this was an unhealthy relationship, laced with transference and countertransference.

QUOTE(Jules @ Nov 1 2013, 03:24 AM) *
I think it was murder. I'd say I'm about 80% sure of it. I don't buy the suicide thing and I think the whole situation is too sketchy to be considered an accident. For a while, I thought it was an accident, but some of the stuff is just too strange. I'm leaning towards Greenson being a key player.

Will we ever know for sure!? "Possible suicide" isn't an acceptable COD by today's standard. How long until we do reach a moment of real and final closure? Until I'm an old lady in 50-something years? I can wait, but I'd rather not. Will we have to wait until everyone that may know something is dead before the truth really comes out? If I ever have a lot of money someday, it's going towards a full blown investigation and reevaluation, because there have been days when I just sit there and stare at my TV's guide screen and see another conspiracy theory doc on MM's death and I say "why can't we just get the truth already!?"

I feel the truth does exist somewhere out there, and they're waiting up people "don't care" as much anymore. Problem is, people care more now than they ever did.


I don't think we'll ever know for sure, too much time has passed. Even if a TV network did investigate it, I doubt the authorities will; it's not in their interest, the vast majority of people who were around when Marilyn died are dead now. Of course files may leak but I tend to believe most stuff was destroyed years ago, other wise it would have come out now for certain.

I think we should just enjoy her films and remember her for them and her beauty.

Posted by: Margherita Nov 11 2013, 09:01 PM

QUOTE(Jules @ Nov 1 2013, 05:24 AM) *
I'm leaning towards Greenson being a key player.

How long until we do reach a moment of real and final closure? Until I'm an old lady in 50-something years?

I feel the truth does exist somewhere out there, and they're waiting up people "don't care" as much anymore. Problem is, people care more now than they ever did.


In my opinion Greenson was a scapegoat, in right place, right time, but he didn't plan to kill Marilyn, instead save her.



But I don't think people in general - special MM-fans excluded - care more now that they ever did, most younger generations have hard to remember and define who Marilyn actually was and what did she look like.

Posted by: Celia Nov 23 2013, 10:49 PM

QUOTE(Margherita @ Nov 11 2013, 09:01 PM) *
In my opinion Greenson was a scapegoat, in right place, right time, but he didn't plan to kill Marilyn, instead save her.
But I don't think people in general - special MM-fans excluded - care more now that they ever did, most younger generations have hard to remember and define who Marilyn actually was and what did she look like.


Really? Do you think these are the last generations who will ever know who Marilyn was? I think this could be a good topic for the discussion thread. I think I am going to open one and see what people think. I am curious about it!
Thanks for the idea.

Posted by: Margherita Dec 10 2013, 08:53 PM

I don't think that we are the last generation, or the next last, that will know who Marilyn was - she will remain in history.

But maybe in the future she is not approached so passionately and intimately, more like just somebody who once lived. Unfortunately that's how the history goes, unless the person is very colorful and meaningful.

Then again - Marilyn is !!

I've read ( and seen paintings ) quite a lot about Frida Kahlo, who in my opinion was just as colorful, eccentric and unforgettable as Marilyn, and well, she died already 1954 but is still a person of whom millions of people are interested and love her.

So Marilyn lived some years longer, is an unforgettable personality of whom a lot of people make new findings, like for instance her "Fragments" and I suppose there are new to come up, both hilarious and positive, and maybe something sad etc.
The life around Marilyn was also connected to so many people in movies, theatre, literature, poets, cities.

And it's not that you must be interested about somebody who didn't die so long ago, you don't have to have lived when the person was still alive, the decades don't matter.

So I partly draw back what I said - she will be remembered jumpymm.gif

Posted by: KingAl May 16 2015, 04:03 PM

I didn't vote for suicide , because almost all the known facts, about her death and days before she finally departed go in favor of a murder. The mystery is who and why. Even if it was accidental overdose there was so much Nembutal in her blood that could kill an elephant ,yet there were no water no liquid at all in the bedroom and not a single capsule in her stomach or intestines. There are a couple of good documentaries about it such as Say Goodbye to the President, and History Mysteries- - The Death Of Marilyn Monroe. Well I would disregard Mrs Carmen as a real witness or a friend of Marilyn ( may be she knew Marilyn but there were not close friends or ... who knows). In last year or two of her life she really started to mix with politics , she had already file in CIA/FBI under letter C ( Communist) she did visit Cal Neva Lodge ( there are photos as evidence) yet she was not depressed at that time. Just look at her last photo session at Santa Monica beech by George Barris or listen to her last interview.

Posted by: Eva May 17 2015, 03:55 AM

QUOTE(KingAl @ May 16 2015, 04:03 PM) *
I didn't vote for suicide , because almost all the known facts, about her death and days before she finally departed go in favor of a murder. The mystery is who and why. Even if it was accidental overdose there was so much Nembutal in her blood that could kill an elephant ,yet there were no water no liquid at all in the bedroom and not a single capsule in her stomach or intestines. There are a couple of good documentaries about it such as Say Goodbye to the President, and History Mysteries- - The Death Of Marilyn Monroe. Well I would disregard Mrs Carmen as a real witness or a friend of Marilyn ( may be she knew Marilyn but there were not close friends or ... who knows). In last year or two of her life she really started to mix with politics , she had already file in CIA/FBI under letter C ( Communist) she did visit Cal Neva Lodge ( there are photos as evidence) yet she was not depressed at that time. Just look at her last photo session at Santa Monica beech by George Barris or listen to her last interview.


There was a recent documentary here in the UK done by a renowned pathologist who had went through Marilyn's personal medical files, he came to the conclusion that both the Chloral and Nembutal which was taken together was a lethal combination and the main factor why Marilyn had stopped breathing and her trying to phone for help? And yes there was a glass tumbler next to her bed side

Posted by: KingAl May 20 2015, 04:01 PM

QUOTE(Eva @ May 17 2015, 03:55 AM) *
There was a recent documentary here in the UK done by a renowned pathologist who had went through Marilyn's personal medical files, he came to the conclusion that both the Chloral and Nembutal which was taken together was a lethal combination and the main factor why Marilyn had stopped breathing and her trying to phone for help? And yes there was a glass tumbler next to her bed side

But what happened after she called? There was another documentary where basically the ambulance arrives and starts resuscitation and she starts breathing again but then Dr Greenson arrives and gives her something like hypodermic adrenalin injection but there ws no adrenalin in it instead of it it was more nembutal directly into her bloodstream or chloral hydrate.

Posted by: Fav May 21 2015, 09:17 PM

QUOTE(KingAl @ May 20 2015, 04:01 PM) *
But what happened after she called? There was another documentary where basically the ambulance arrives and starts resuscitation and she starts breathing again but then Dr Greenson arrives and gives her something like hypodermic adrenalin injection but there ws no adrenalin in it instead of it it was more nembutal directly into her bloodstream or chloral hydrate.


The programme said she tried to call Ralph Roberts but did not answer. It is likely she slipped into unconciousness after that. It is really hard to know what to believe isn't it. We'll never know for definite if there was any foul play. IF the autopsy record is to be believed, there was no puncture wounds on the body for an injection site so Greenson wouldn't have done that. It's hard to believe she was murdered - maybe that is because I just can't get my head around that. However it being an accident or a cry for help gone wrong does fit and make complete sense. But if someone wanted us to think that, they could also do that with her track record. Personally I think it was an accident.

Posted by: a monroeist Aug 12 2015, 12:36 PM

Impossible accident.

Very good toxicological analysis: http://southernwingsaircraft.com/howmarilyndied.html

It was murder. Simply nothing else could it be. We don't know who or why did it but that was it. Scietifically proven by the very toxicological evidence in the official files of the investigation.

Posted by: Mariposa Feb 13 2016, 02:55 PM

I've read a lot about Marilyn and researched things online and watched the various TV programs about her - for years now.One of the things which clinched it for me was the fact she had so much planned both in the future and also the IMMEDIATE future. Despite all the smoke screens regarding Something's Got To Give I don't think she decided at THAT particular time to kill herself. Also, I don't think it was an accident - Marilyn was in touch with many many people on the phone including on the west coast - if she had made a mistake or lost track they could have come to her aid.

I agree with the last poster - she WAS murdered.I remember when I came to that final conclusion - I felt SO sad for her and about the lost years ahead of her when I'm sure her acting talents would just have gone on and on getting better on stage too as well as on screen. Like Brigitte Bardot I could see her doing a lot for the welfare of animals and for the children she loved etc etc

She knew the wrong people and her integrity wouldn't allow her to keep silent - ironically the fact of her death speaks louder and echoes down the years.

Poor darling Mazza!

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