Od (over Dose) Discussion And Theories Share | Options

[mels]

Hello all!
Here's a little file I compiled for the Forever Marilyn Death Discussion Group, after reading a lot about Marilyn's death and learning MANY things thanks to the member of the aforementionned group.
This is meant to be interactive: people can add things, question others, etc... to make the most complete file possible.

Here is what I wrote, I'm now leaving it to you all to add your questions, remarks, points and such (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/smile1.gif)

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Marilyn died of an O.D. (Over Dose) of Nembutal. The coroner, along with other experts have concluded the cause of her death was “probable suicide”. If we study the different ways Marilyn could have ODed, the least we can say is that some facts are quite interesting.

I would like to study carefully the ways Marilyn could have ODed, and use the information from the autopsy as well as “facts” from Marilyn’s last day, in the hope of finding a concrete answer regarding what really happened to her.

Marilyn could have ODed in three different ways:

1. oral ingestion of Nembutal pills
2. massive injection of Nembutal
3. administration of Nembutal via an enema


Oral Ingestion of Nembutal pills

How:
Marilyn would have had to swallow between 45 and 60 capsules of Nembutal (75 / 90 according to Abbott, the company who manufactures Nembutal) in a very reduced timescale (a couple of minutes) in order to OD and for her blood level to match the one measured in her autopsy.

Why swallow all these pills?
Obviously to deliberately commit suicide.

Why this must be ruled out:
Because of the following facts, there is no way Marilyn could have died because she swallowed too many pills (suicide theory):

(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) No “yellow trail” caused by the melting of the caps of Nembutal, which usually leave a trail (though Noguchi claimed it was usual in ODs experienced by drug abusers)
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) No crystals were found in her stomach and duodenum (though Noguchi claimed it was usual in ODs experiences by drug abusers, charts have always proven the contrary)
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Because of the amount of drugs found in her blood, she should have passed out before all the drugs had been processed by her organs : there is NO way the stomach could be empty:
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) In ALL reported and studied cases of ODs similar to Marilyn’s case (same blood and liver levels), there are ALWAYS contents in the stomach. Why would things be different in Marilyn’s case?
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) According to the pharmacist’s invoice, Marilyn didn’t have more than 25 Nembutal capsules at hand that week end (the prescription was filled on Aug. 3rd). Her last prescription having been filled in June, it is hardly believable that, as a drug addict, she would have kept some of the capsules from that June prescription somewhere. She had used all of them by then.

I have NO arguments for the other side (ie. “why it is possible that an oral ingestion caused the OD). Please feel free to add your facts and analysis for that side if you have some!


Injection of Nembutal solution

This theory, because of what it represents, completely discards suicide.

How:
Several injections by a 3rd party of Nembutal through a fairly big needle.

Why use an injection?
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Because the effects are felt much faster than with the oral ingestion way,
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Because Engleberg and Greenson were trying to slow down Marilyn’s takes of Nembutal. Administrating Nembutal through injections allowed Engleberg to have a FULL control over Marilyn’s dependence on the drug and to reduce the amount of pills she could use.

Why this possibility must be considered:
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) No Nembutal pills prescription filled between June and August 3rd. Because of the withdrawal effects when slowing down such medicines, there is NO way that Marilyn was not taking Nembutal through another way than pills. It is curious that Engleberg left Marilyn with SO little pills (considering her addiction and abuse history) if he did not help “on the side”, through injections (though he NEVER acknowledged this).
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) We know that Engleberg had been giving her daily injections of what he called vitamins for 2 months. He says the vitamins were injected to boost her immune system and help it fight against the sinusitis she caught on the SGTG set. Which sounds more than fishy because the sinusitis happened MONTHS before. There were probably vitamins in his shots, but there was also, very likely, Nembutal in them.

Why we have to discard this theory:
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Considering the amount of drugs found in Marilyn’s blood, the needle should have been fairly big and would have left visible marks on her body (needle mark, and even a bruise). The autopsy report states that there were absolutely NO needle marks on her body, and Noguchi said they looked every inch of it with a magnifying glass.
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Moreover, it would have required way too many injections to get such an AMT level in her blood and liver, considering the dosages available on the market, even at that time: the autopsy should have shown SEVERAL needle marks. Yet, not even one was found.
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) The blood and liver levels should have been inverted (blood level should be higher than liver level), which was not the case.
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) From what we know, Marilyn didn’t see Engleberg that day (according to Spoto, when asked to come over by Greenson in order to make a sedative injection, he refused): how could she have received that injection?



Administration of the Nembutal via enema

This theory, because of what it represents, completely discards suicide.

How:
Using a rectal syringe with a minimal amount of solution (about a shot glass).


Why use the enema solution?
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Because it bypasses the liver’s first pass: the drug gets delivered directly into the blood and then the brain: after the injection, it seems to be the more effective and fast way for a drug to start its effects on the brain.
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) As stated before (see “injection” theory), according to Spoto, Engleberg refused to come over for an injection, yet Greenson wanted Marilyn to get sedatives for the night (side question: why was she so “excited”/upset that day, to the point that she absolutely more sedatives than usual?). The only solution for him would then have been the enema, which was used commonly at that time and often used by Marilyn for other reasons.

Why we can consider this theory as possible:
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) It would explain the lack of crystals in the stomach and duodenum
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) it would explain the sheer amount of drugs in the blood and liver with no residue in the stomach
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) it would explain the colon discoloration
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) it would explain the lack of the “yellow trails” usually caused by Nembutal capsules (if we discard Noguchi’s statement regarding these “trails”)
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) it makes the OD “physically” possible: one single administration vs 45/60 pills to swallow or several injections
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Marilyn was familiar with enemas: it wouldn’t be completely displaced for her to get one on this occasion
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) all the information we have tend to prove she didn’t have more than 25 pills at hand. She can’t have ODed with “just” 25 pills, as a drug addict at least.

Why there are flaws in this theory?
Hell I don’t know any flaw… so please feel free to elaborate (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/wink3.gif)


What could have happened that day…

One theory, which I tend to buy is the following:
Engleberg provided Greenson with the liquid Nembutal (how? when?) so Greenson could ask someone at Marilyn’s house (Murray for example) to proceed with the enema.
Engleberg made a mistake when he communicated the dosage to Greenson, or Greenson forgot the specifics of the dosage and used too much Nemb.

Your theory here:

[sabine]

Let me clarify some thing:

"No “yellow trail” caused by the melting of the caps of Nembutal, which usually leave a trail (though Noguchi claimed it was usual in ODs experienced by drug abusers)"

SABINE: Nembutal's do not leave a yellow 'trail' behind....the dye in the capsules does not behave in this way.

No crystals were found in her stomach and duodenum (though Noguchi claimed it was usual in ODs experiences by drug abusers, charts have always proven the contrary)

SABINE; i do not know what 'charts' these would be but it is absolutely possible for drugs to pass thru an empty stomach of a habitual user without a trace....the strong stomachacid would disolve a handful of pills in UNDER 10 MINUTES....within 30-45 minutes there would be no trace left, especially in a person highly used to receiving the medication.

Because of the amount of drugs found in her blood, she should have passed out before all the drugs had been processed by her organs : there is NO way the stomach could be empty:

SABINE; Wrong again! The stomach acid was more than capable to disolve all the pills in under 10 minutes, while marilyn was still awake....even in a coma the body would continue to move the drugs from the stomach into the intestines.
It would not take a long time for the drugs to pass on....we are talking less than an hour.

In ALL reported and studied cases of ODs similar to Marilyn’s case (same blood and liver levels), there are ALWAYS contents in the stomach. Why would things be different in Marilyn’s case?

SABINE; It depends on the severity of the drugproblem, wether the people had eaten before or not....the fact that marilyn's stomach was found empty only points toward the sad fact that she had a huge drugproblem aquiered over many years.

According to the pharmacist’s invoice, Marilyn didn’t have more than 25 Nembutal capsules at hand that week end (the prescription was filled on Aug. 3rd). Her last prescription having been filled in June, it is hardly believable that, as a drug addict, she would have kept some of the capsules from that June prescription somewhere. She had used all of them by then.

SABINE; According to the bloodcount there were about 25 nembutals (and some chloral hydrate) in her blood...the prescription filled from the day before.
The pills filled on aug. 3rd show up in her bloodstream the next day, all of them.

sabine

[mels]

Hello Sabine,

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/smile1.gif)

SABINE: Nembutal's do not leave a yellow 'trail' behind....the dye in the capsules does not behave in this way.

This has indeed been confirmed on more than several occasions, yet I don't know why I keep reading this from time to time here and there. But I'm now believing that this whole "yellow trails" thing is more a legend than a fact. So we agree on that one (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/smile1.gif)

SABINE; i do not know what 'charts' these would be but it is absolutely possible for drugs to pass thru an empty stomach of a habitual user without a trace....the strong stomachacid would disolve a handful of pills in UNDER 10 MINUTES....within 30-45 minutes there would be no trace left, especially in a person highly used to receiving the medication.

I do believe that all obvious traces of the drugs would be gone very fast as well, in the space of 30 mn actually, from the stomach. But Marilyn was an addict, so it would have required much more time... maybe at least twice as much.
Regarding the crystals... I am not positive about the fact that not even a few crystals would remain at least before the stomach... Then again, I am totally willing to read more about that and if you have any texts to share with me that would explain this phenomena better or describe how the crystals work, I would love to read about that, this would help me take a firm opinion. I'm still on the "there SHOULD have been crystals" side but as I said, I am totally opened to explanations etc... why this would be wrong.

SABINE; Wrong again!  The stomach acid was more than capable to disolve all the pills in under 10 minutes, while marilyn was still awake....even in a coma the body would continue to move the drugs from the stomach into the intestines.
It would not take a long time for the drugs to pass on....we are talking less than an hour.

Yes, this would be 100% true if we were not talking about an addict. But Marilyn was one, the 25 pills would have taken around 20 mns to disolve for a non-addict, according to the Doctor (I think his name was Cozzi) who made the experiment in a Discovery Channel documentary. It was broadcast this week on TV here that's why I remember well what he said.
While his experience was fascinating and very informative (I learnt tons of things!!!), he forgot just a little thing: Marilyn was an addict.
I know that someone contacted him via e-mail regarding this matter and he admitted himself that this was a mistake and that the "24 pills calculation" and "20mns tops for the stomach processing the pills" mesures were wrong because based on the case of a non-addict :(

SABINE; It depends on the severity of the drugproblem, wether the people had eaten before or not....the fact that marilyn's stomach was found empty only points toward the sad fact that she had a huge drugproblem aquiered over many years.

Now that's an interesting point, and I wish I could find a way to contact Cozzi and ask him how this could have had an impact, because I think you might be right on this one...

SABINE; According to the bloodcount there were about 25 nembutals (and some chloral hydrate) in her blood...the prescription filled from the day before.
The pills filled on aug. 3rd show up in her bloodstream the next day, all of them.

Agreed (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/smile1.gif)
Except the 25 pills, in Marilyn's case, wouldn't have been enough to kill her... Still according to Cozzi's acknowledgement that his math (which led to the 25 pills amount) was wrong because based on a non addict person.

These were just my .2 $

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post, you were obviously the only one interested (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/wink3.gif)

Mels

[Stacy♥]

I always thought Marily's stomach was empty because she was suffering from a bought of nausea and dirreahea. On the 3rd Dr. Engleberg made a house call to Marilyn. He gave her an injection and wrote two prescriptions, one for the Nembutal and one for Phenengren.
The last being for nausea and dirreahea. On the morning of the 4th
Marilyn declined breakfast.

This post has been edited by chickeyonthego: Oct 9 2004, 04:24 AM

[BeyondCamelot]

Regarding the lack of needle marks, there was one author who suggested injections under the arm, into one of the recently shaved hair areas, which would hide a needle mark. I haven't been able to prove anything about this as impossible, but my knowledge of medicine is limited to gunshot wounds. Maybe something was used to knock her out, then maybe the rest was used to kill her. One injection, then lots of injections under both arms and maybe in the pubic area?

[the_Mmmm_girl]

the needle should have been fairly big and would have left visible marks on her body (needle mark, and even a bruise).

I read somewhere that Marilyn got a needle for the flu or something the week before and they never saw those needle marks either... and like Beyond Camelot said the armpit area was one they discussed on A&E

This post has been edited by the_Mmmm_girl: Oct 16 2004, 12:53 PM

[mels]

First, Noguchi clearly stated that they went through every inch of Marilyn's body, and I tend to believe him.

Even if they missed some spots, an injection could not have caused Marilyn's death... As I explained in my first post, the blood and liver levels should have been inverted in the case of an (or several) injection(s) (blood level should be higher than liver level), which was not the case...

In a nutshell, the autopsy results narrow down the possibilities to this:
- Marilyn either swallowed the pills
- or she was given them via enema

Moreover this really implies a murder, which I honestly don't believe in. But this is just my POV, while the blood and liver levels are scientific reasons why this can not have happenned... (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

This post has been edited by mels: Oct 16 2004, 05:32 PM

[Nina]

Mels and Sabine, I'm late in reply but I wanted to thank you both for the time and details you put into your messages. I'm sorry I'm not so active in this area (even if I was someone, who said to Mels it would be great to have such a forum) but the reason is only I can't express my feelings (and all the med. details) in english... I guess I would make only trouble because people will missunderstand what I really want to say - but I read every post and maybe I will try to post here later too.

However, I just wanted to thank you (and everyone else of course (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/wink3.gif) )

(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/hug.gif)

[the_Mmmm_girl]

lol i agree with you Nina! That's why I'm going out to buy the MM book by Matthew Smith which discusses these theories so i can actually share in the discussion coz this is all darn interesting stuff!

[mels]

LOL!
You know, it took me forever to understand everything in French. So it took me twice forever to understand in English!...I had to compile everything I had and knew, and then ask some questions on the FM DD Group when I wasn't sure... I'm still far, VERY far from understanding everything but I'm now pretty happy to have understood that whole "why can't she have had an (or several) injection(s)" theory and also made me realize that she could really have committed suicide.
I used to be sure that she hadn't because I thought I understood her psyche enough... But now... I'm not that sure anymore that it was an accident...

I also used to believe the murder theory, a long time ago, and it was all because of Don Wolfe's book... Now I do know that some facts and witnesses are wrong in it and I realized nothing was to take for granted in it. With more perspective I came to think that the murder hypothesis was ridiculous (in my opinion, of course).

Mels.

[marilyns_firstki...]

so this post is extremely old but i read through and had a few questions...


wasn't it reported that pat newcomb said marilyn was upset on the morning of the fourth because she couldn't sleep that night..if this is true, why wouldn't she take some of the nembutal pills that she bought on the third, which would then decrease the amount she had for the next day...?

also, this may be a silly question and somewhat un-anwerable(making up my own words here) but mrs. murray was marilyns housekeeper, so why was mm's room so messy in all the pictures? this could suggest two things, ...one mrs. murray didn't clean mm's room because mm didn't want her to,,,or 2, there were people there cleaning up after marilyn died..


also,,,i found this statement, which i will give the website at the bottom of the post...anyhow, it says...
How many capsules did Dr. Curphy {the head coroner} feel Marilyn swallowed?
In his question and answer session with the press he stated she would have had to swallow approx. 47
Nembutal and 17 Chloral Hydrate capsules.


i believe i have read it was 47 somewhere else too...but sabine,,,who i think is highly intelligent btw, says it was 25 pills...where are these numbers from?


heres the sitehow marilyn died

thanks everyone!

[Paju]

I admit that I'm not an expert at all when it comes to Marilyn's death... I'm learning more about it all the time though. So feel free to correct me, but this came to my mind:

What if Marilyn herself took some pills that day and then someone gave her an enema?

Maybe that someone who gave her the enema (or someone who asked someone else to give her the enema) didn't know she had taken pills herself that day? And together those pills and the enema contained a lethal amount of the drug.
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Accident.

Or maybe that someone who gave, or asked someone else to give her an enema, knew she had taken those pills and knew the enema alone wouldn't be lethal, but those two combined would be? And saw this as the perfect chance to get rid of her.
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Murder.

Or maybe Marilyn herself realized the pills and the enema together would be lethal, but let someone give her the enema anyway.
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Suicide (in a way).
(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/arrow2.gif) Accident. She didn't know that those two combined would be lethal.

Plus, doesn't an enema easily make a person have diarrhea or something similar. That would also explain Mrs. Murray's washing machine, if that's true.

Just my two cents.

[Tara]

I really do recommend David Marshall's book, 'The DD Group: An Online Investigation Into The Death Of Marilyn Monroe'. Not just because I know the author, but because it's really the only book which looks at all the different theories independently, rather than assuming it was murder/suicide and interpreting the facts to fit that theory as Wolfe, Smith et al have done. It does look at the overdose in detail and all aspects of Marilyn's death.

My own opinion is, I don't think it was murder. But the trouble is, even with a scientific analysis of the substances in Marilyn's body and how they might have been administered, there is still room for debate. Thanks Erin for posting that link on the enema theory. Another possibility is that Marilyn could have administered an enema herself - because some enemas can be used that way. Just another theory out there, I am still undecided on this aspect of the overdose.

This post has been edited by Tara: Sep 7 2006, 10:05 AM

[marilyns_firstki...]

thanks tara and paju..i did read the dd group and i'm part of the yahoo group..its a great read and its why i am so interested in solving her death...so i thought of another question last night...why was it that chloral hydrate and nembutal levels were found in her blood but only nembutal(13% i think) was found in her liver..why was the chloral hydrate not found in her liver?

[Lauren Michele]

I really do recommend David Marshall's book, 'The DD Group: An Online Investigation Into The Death Of Marilyn Monroe'. Not just because I know the author, but because it's really the only book which looks at all the different theories independently, rather than assuming it was murder/suicide and interpreting the facts to fit that theory as Wolfe, Smith et al have done. It does look at the overdose in detail and all aspects of Marilyn's death.

My own opinion is, I don't think it was murder. But the trouble is, even with a scientific analysis of the substances in Marilyn's body and how they might have been administered, there is still room for debate. Thanks Erin for posting that link on the enema theory. Another possibility is that Marilyn could have administered an enema herself - because some enemas can be used that way. Just another theory out there, I am still undecided on this aspect of the overdose.

Tara you sound confident about David Marshall's book. I definately want to read his findings. I never thought of Marilyn possibly administering the enema herself. Also, the autopsy just might not have seen these crystals. Not that they were at fault but possibly something only science can explain. Stranger things have happened. Thanks.

[marilyns_firstki...]

they examined the specimens under a microscope and no crystals were found...so i don't think it could be a mistake..either ya see'em or ya don't kinda thing.. (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/throb.gif) (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

i have another question...its a little bit on the gross side...but here it goes...it was said that there was a stool formed when the autopsy was done, which most people think exclude the enema theory. but is it true, that if diarrea goes, lets say unanswered, doesn't it harden and then will form a stool...? i have heard that quadriplegics need help removing feces because if it does not come out it will harden and then is not easy to get out...i know,,yuk,,,but i guess i am not trying to prove or disprove the enema theory..just have some questions, and once they are answered it may help me put together the pieces,...





oh yeah,,one more thing...i read in another post by sabine...and someone thought it was suspicious eunice murray ran off to europe after mm died..i don't think anyone explained this, but i thought eunice had the trip already planned, which was to make august 4th her last day of work with marilyn...correct me if i am wrong anybody..

[marilyns_firstki...]

I really do recommend David Marshall's book, 'The DD Group: An Online Investigation Into The Death Of Marilyn Monroe'. Not just because I know the author, but because it's really the only book which looks at all the different theories independently, rather than assuming it was murder/suicide and interpreting the facts to fit that theory as Wolfe, Smith et al have done. It does look at the overdose in detail and all aspects of Marilyn's death.

My own opinion is, I don't think it was murder. But the trouble is, even with a scientific analysis of the substances in Marilyn's body and how they might have been administered, there is still room for debate. Thanks Erin for posting that link on the enema theory. Another possibility is that Marilyn could have administered an enema herself - because some enemas can be used that way. Just another theory out there, I am still undecided on this aspect of the overdose.

hey tara...i just wanted to point out i read back over the site i posted, as i didn't fully understand the math. so this time i really focused,,and it made so much sense. also, just to note, as far as i saw there wasn't a mention of the word enema. they were just trying to prove that the drugs were not orally ingested. i think i am going to post it in the dd group. do you think they have ever seen it?

[Tara]

hey tara...i just wanted to point out i read back over the site i posted, as i didn't fully understand the math. so this time i really focused,,and it made so much sense. also, just to note, as far as i saw there wasn't a mention of the word enema. they were just trying to prove that the drugs were not orally ingested. i think i am going to post it in the dd group. do you think they have ever seen it?

Hi Erin - that report was made by another member of the DD Group. I think it would be great to discuss it there too. (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

This post has been edited by Tara: Sep 12 2006, 06:38 PM

[Nina]

...why was it that chloral hydrate and nembutal levels were found in her blood but only nembutal (13% i think) was found in her liver..why was the chloral hydrate not found in her liver?

Erin, I found your questions very interesting and maybe you should post/ask this one (the chloral hydrate one) also on the DDGroup. To me, the autopsy and the report of the chemical analysis does not fit together. I don't get it, why this case could have been named as closed. I believe, it was a much bigger thing as we all could ever imagine.

(IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[marilyns_firstki...]

thanks tara..and nina thankyou too, as i will ask the group the question..if only i had more medical background! maybe someone there can explain it. (IMG:http://www.everlasting-star.net/boards/style_emoticons/default/thumbup1.gif)