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> How do you think Marilyn died?, Let's open the debate
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In your opinion, how did Marilyn die?
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lorileime
post Jun 19 2007, 01:26 AM
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My theory is that Dr. Greenson killed her, but it was an accident. Remember, he was manipulating her as an employee of 20th Century Fox. He had been hired by Fox and had promised them that HE would be personally responsible for making sure she would get SGTG finished. I think in his own little mind, he was suffering of some sort of self agrandizing fantasy. He was convinced that if he could get Monroe to the studio and make her finish the movie, that he would be lauded as the greatest psychiatrist in Hollywood and that all of the rich and famous of Hollywood would flock to his door and he would them, by proxy, become famous himself. In the meantime, Marilyn, who had been spending more and more time with Joe and who had begun to come to the reality that she really didn't need psychotherapy but a real, loving relationship, and was beginning to get her life together, (if we believe that she and Joe were schedule to remarry, which I do because of how completely and deeply he was affected by her death), and the fact that she had made arrangements to start working in television, which she had been convinced before by Milton Greene to stay away from because she was a Silver Screen Star and too big for tv, and with her work at the actor's studio giving her more confidence to move on, etc, etc, I believe accounts that she was ready to get rid of Greenson and that Greenson, probably through Murray, had found this out. Greenson then, (and this is just conjecture on my part) convinced Murray to help him in a scheme because if not, if he goes, she goes (out of a job). The plan was to give Marilyn her regular enema, (which many females stars did back then to keep themselves cleaned out and as thin as possible), but the enema would be laced with Chloral Hydrate (which the autopsy couldn't figure out how it got into her system). Added to whatever else Marilyn was taking anyway, Nembutal, etc., she would slip into a very deep, coma-like state and Greenson would arrive just in time, after having been tipped off by Murray, and save Marilyn's life. That would indebt her to him to such a deep degree that she would not be able to fire him and he would be the hero-psychoanalyst who saved the world, saved the star, saved the picture, saved the studio. No one would be able to deny him anything. I even think that reports of him injecting something into her heart would make sense because even today, there are instances where patients are injected with adrenaline directly into their hearts when they stop beating. Adrenaline will start a heart beating again. But, since Marilyn didn't know that she was being tricked, she may have taken two or three Nembutal that night because she really needed or wanted to get a good rest. That may have been just enough to take her over the edge. Or, if Murray was involved, what if Greenson had left instructions with Murray as to how much CH to add to the enema and Murray screwed up the dosage and killed her. Either way, the two of them were in on it together and it ended up being just an accident perpetrated by an ego-maniacal deeply disturbed individual trying to further his own fame and fortune. What really needs to be done is a very lengthy and in-depth study of Greenson's whole life. Why he wanted to be a psychiatrist, how he got there and what happened to him after MM's died. Also, the explaination about Murray washing clothes after MM died, once Marilyn slipped into a coma, her body naturally expelled the remaining liquid and the bed was probably a mess. So the sheets were changed, the body moved, etc. That's why Clemens knew instantly that the scene was altered and that MM had't died from a suicied. Murray probably threw out the enema bag and the CH bottle in the trash that she supposedly had her nephew take away. That's why no evidence was found. Remember, even though it wasn't that long ago, police back then didn't have all of the forensic knowledge they have now. Today, they would have shut down the neighborhood and investigated everything. Sorry to go on and on, but I think I'm right on this one. Anyone else with an opinion, please add it. I'd love to hear it.
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lorileime
post Jun 21 2007, 06:24 PM
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Jack the Ripper's mother never loved him. Thanks for the vote of confidence with my Greenson theory.
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luvyou_MM
post Sep 11 2007, 02:46 AM
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Im definitly on the murder side. I used to lean to the accidental side but now Ive just read sooo much that shocks me and no I believe it was murder and a HUGE cover up from so many different parties.
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BeforeTheDawn
post Oct 21 2007, 02:29 AM
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I sadly think she was killed :(
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tigerlily
post Oct 26 2007, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE(BeforeTheDawn @ Oct 21 2007, 11:29 AM) *
I sadly think she was killed :(


i agree
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Shirley
post Mar 23 2008, 10:08 AM
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QUOTE(lorileime @ Jun 19 2007, 02:26 AM) *
My theory is that Dr. Greenson killed her, but it was an accident. Remember, he was manipulating her as an employee of 20th Century Fox. He had been hired by Fox and had promised them that HE would be personally responsible for making sure she would get SGTG finished. I think in his own little mind, he was suffering of some sort of self agrandizing fantasy. He was convinced that if he could get Monroe to the studio and make her finish the movie, that he would be lauded as the greatest psychiatrist in Hollywood and that all of the rich and famous of Hollywood would flock to his door and he would them, by proxy, become famous himself. In the meantime, Marilyn, who had been spending more and more time with Joe and who had begun to come to the reality that she really didn't need psychotherapy but a real, loving relationship, and was beginning to get her life together, (if we believe that she and Joe were schedule to remarry, which I do because of how completely and deeply he was affected by her death), and the fact that she had made arrangements to start working in television, which she had been convinced before by Milton Greene to stay away from because she was a Silver Screen Star and too big for tv, and with her work at the actor's studio giving her more confidence to move on, etc, etc, I believe accounts that she was ready to get rid of Greenson and that Greenson, probably through Murray, had found this out. Greenson then, (and this is just conjecture on my part) convinced Murray to help him in a scheme because if not, if he goes, she goes (out of a job). The plan was to give Marilyn her regular enema, (which many females stars did back then to keep themselves cleaned out and as thin as possible), but the enema would be laced with Chloral Hydrate (which the autopsy couldn't figure out how it got into her system). Added to whatever else Marilyn was taking anyway, Nembutal, etc., she would slip into a very deep, coma-like state and Greenson would arrive just in time, after having been tipped off by Murray, and save Marilyn's life. That would indebt her to him to such a deep degree that she would not be able to fire him and he would be the hero-psychoanalyst who saved the world, saved the star, saved the picture, saved the studio. No one would be able to deny him anything. I even think that reports of him injecting something into her heart would make sense because even today, there are instances where patients are injected with adrenaline directly into their hearts when they stop beating. Adrenaline will start a heart beating again. But, since Marilyn didn't know that she was being tricked, she may have taken two or three Nembutal that night because she really needed or wanted to get a good rest. That may have been just enough to take her over the edge. Or, if Murray was involved, what if Greenson had left instructions with Murray as to how much CH to add to the enema and Murray screwed up the dosage and killed her. Either way, the two of them were in on it together and it ended up being just an accident perpetrated by an ego-maniacal deeply disturbed individual trying to further his own fame and fortune. What really needs to be done is a very lengthy and in-depth study of Greenson's whole life. Why he wanted to be a psychiatrist, how he got there and what happened to him after MM's died. Also, the explaination about Murray washing clothes after MM died, once Marilyn slipped into a coma, her body naturally expelled the remaining liquid and the bed was probably a mess. So the sheets were changed, the body moved, etc. That's why Clemens knew instantly that the scene was altered and that MM had't died from a suicied. Murray probably threw out the enema bag and the CH bottle in the trash that she supposedly had her nephew take away. That's why no evidence was found. Remember, even though it wasn't that long ago, police back then didn't have all of the forensic knowledge they have now. Today, they would have shut down the neighborhood and investigated everything. Sorry to go on and on, but I think I'm right on this one. Anyone else with an opinion, please add it. I'd love to hear it.



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Margherita
post Mar 24 2008, 12:14 AM
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I don't believe in that theory allmost a bit, allthough I agree that some sort of accident might have happened but not that way.
I just can't believe that Greenson was so disturbed or actually I don't believe that he was disturbed at all. And that he and Murray had a "plot", no way...

If Mrs. Murray threw the something in a wastebasket then why didn't she put all the dirty sheets and others to a big plastic bag and ask her nephew to take them as far as possible and cast away somewhere, or burn them? Why bother start washing them when the house was full of officials and police sergeants and medics? Strange.

Who stole her intestines from the laboratory?

The alleged plan in the above theory takes a huge risk of killing the person who is the object of that kind of sellfish game. Giving huge amount of drugs to a person and then making it look like she's been saved- too complicated. If Greenson wanted desperately to save his job with M, I'm sure he could have invented something else.

And, Marilyn certainly was not going to remarry the ever-boring Joe diMaggio, no matter how pragmatically important the man was for her during those times. Marilyn had had enough of his uneducated gloomy mind and only needed him as an old companion.

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abeautifulchild
post Mar 24 2008, 04:43 AM
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QUOTE(missmarilyn @ Jan 26 2007, 06:40 PM) *
Well, I think it was either suicide or accidental suicide. We all know that she was depressed and prone to suicide, and she tried before but failed. But accidental suicide is different, she may have wanted to kill herself but she wanted to do something or say something to someone. But she took the multiple pills and overdosed. And it wasn't till later Eunice found her light bedroom still on, but no noise.

I'm not sure what to think but those two options are HIGHLY possible.


I completely agree with you. I also agree with the statement that she "wanted to die for the night" that someone mentioned earlier. She was probably feeling depressed that night, so she just wanted to escape into SLEEP and then live to fight another day, but by that time in her life she was taking so much medication at such high doses that she was not aware of what she was doing anymore. So that is my theory on the accidental death and thats the opinion I tend to lead towards most days. I think that the reason she was found with the phone in her hand was because she was trying to call someone, maybe a call for help, maybe not, when she fell into unconsciousness. I don't think it was staged.

I believe there is a slight possibility that it could have been intentional because really she was feeling abandoned because she now had no love life after her relationship with the Kennedy's was over (they dropped her, the bastards) she never had the children that she wanted and perhaps could not even have children anyway, her career wasn't exactly thriving and anyway she never really loved any of the films that she made or was going to make, she felt she had failed at her attempt to express her talent and be a serious actress, she bought her first house but alone, she felt that she was aging (although in my opinion she looked better than ever before and she was so beautiful at the time of her death), and then there are her suicide attempts before. And also the fact that she could have been a borderline or bipolar. I'm sorry but it is my opinion that you can never dismiss the suicide theory all together if you know for a fact that Marilyn had attempted suicide- and more than once- before. And to address the people who say, "Oh, well she didn't leave a note..." actually, most suicides don't leave a note... I'm not saying that that's my opinion as I mentioned before, but I think that it's possible. The statements that people make about Marilyn being in a good state of mind- which they support by the fact that she was going ahead with Something's Got To Give and that she just bought her first house ever and that she was planning for her future- aren't enough for me. And then there is the fact that most of her close friends and one of her husbands- such as Norman Rosten and Arthur Miller- believed that she did commit suicide and they spent quite a lot of time with her obviously. We know that what Marilyn wanted above all was to be loved. In the end it never happened for her. Maybe it could have but whether she commited suicide or it was accidental or not, she obviously didn't believe at that time that it ever would after what she had been through. She had an awful (personal) life and as Norman Rosten said it was awful that "the Love Goddess had to die for lack of it."

The fact is that whether it was suicide or not she was on the road to destruction mixing alcohol with pills like she did. In the end I think her body just had enough. She just took too much and it doesn't seem so glamourous but in my opinion it was just an accident. Maybe that final dose was the one that finally had the power to do her in. Perhaps, for once in Marilyn's life, the drama was absent...to quote Greenson (I'm doing a lot of quoting haha) it was "so simple and final and over..."

I don't believe in the murder theory whatsoever and I don't feel like writing a novel about it right now but I will just say that the Kennedy's way of "getting rid of her" was in my opinion, obviously the fact that they had cut her off much earlier than her death. They didn't need to murder her. They, well at least Jack, had experience in adultery and dropping women after he was through with them before, and he dealt with the gossip of his infidelity, but you did not see his other mistresses being murdered. And yes, although Marilyn was a much bigger star than those girls were, it still comes down to the same thing. Those other mistresses still had the capactity to "tell all" just as Marilyn was supposed to have said she would do. And anyway I believe they dismissed that as something said out of anger and bitterness if she really said it, but I really don't believe she would want to do that and be the one who would discredit a beloved American man muchless a President and embarass his family. The only cover-up as far as the Kennedy's were concerned was getting rid of the evidence of their affairs, I think.

As for the other theories that she was murdered by the mob I don't know about but I do feel they lack substantial evidence and anyway are sort of far-fetched. As for the Greenson/Murray murder theory I find it ridiculous. I still don't see what their motive would be; it doesn't make sense to me. For all his mistakes, I feel Greenson really wanted to help Marilyn. I also think that a lot of people just want to think that Marilyn was murdered because of who she was; an icon.


Just my opinion, sorry for rambling (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blushing.gif) Gosh, I hope people don't yell at me for believing in the accidental theory haha

This post has been edited by abeautifulchild: Mar 29 2008, 01:37 AM
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Shirley
post Mar 24 2008, 08:19 PM
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Well, I'd suggest Spoto's biography. He denies all those stories about Kennedys involved in Marilyn's death. A pity that lots of people still believe those nonsenses. Spoto tells that Slatzer was one of the firsts claiming he "knew" about Marilyn's affair with Jack and Bobby, then Mailer told about the affair in his book. By the way, Mailer later admitted it was all lies but he needed money and that's why he published that sensational story about Marilyn and Kennedys. As for doctor Greenson, he was a pseud psychiatrist, without any respect to Marilyn (never tried to stop her from taking pills at first place, his treatement caused only more psychological problems for Marilyn). NONE of real and educated psychiatrists would invite his own patient to his family, have psychotherapical sessions and eventually make his patient completely dependent on him! Greenson even told Marilyn which friends she should throw out of her life! He did that because all he wanted was to make Marilyn his own property he could control. He was a complete egoist, longing for a fame. You should read about his unproffesional works on his patients, giving secret details. It's absolutely unethical. And Murray was Greenson's stooge, a spy, she even hadn't finished a high school! It's very possible that it was Eunice who gave the fatal enema (she was told by Greenson) to Marilyn. Sure she wasn't qualified to do the medical enema and she overdosed drugs. It was a terrible accident. I believe Spoto's theory. in my opinion, it's the most reliable source. But well, lots of people tend to believe those cheap and sensational stories without evidence because that's more interesting to read than those more realistic ones.
Anyway, it's nice everyone's posting his opinion, it's very interesting to read!
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abeautifulchild
post Mar 24 2008, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE(Shirley @ Mar 24 2008, 08:19 PM) *
Well, I'd suggest Spoto's biography. He denies all those stories about Kennedys involved in Marilyn's death. A pity that lots of people still believe those nonsenses. Spoto tells that Slatzer was one of the firsts claiming he "knew" about Marilyn's affair with Jack and Bobby, then Mailer told about the affair in his book. By the way, Mailer later admitted it was all lies but he needed money and that's why he published that sensational story about Marilyn and Kennedys. As for doctor Greenson, he was a pseud psychiatrist, without any respect to Marilyn (never tried to stop her from taking pills at first place, his treatement caused only more psychological problems for Marilyn). NONE of real and educated psychiatrists would invite his own patient to his family, have psychotherapical sessions and eventually make his patient completely dependent on him! Greenson even told Marilyn which friends she should throw out of her life! He did that because all he wanted was to make Marilyn his own property he could control. He was a complete egoist, longing for a fame. You should read about his unproffesional works on his patients, giving secret details. It's absolutely unethical. And Murray was Greenson's stooge, a spy, she even hadn't finished a high school! It's very possible that it was Eunice who gave the fatal enema (she was told by Greenson) to Marilyn. Sure she wasn't qualified to do the medical enema and she overdosed drugs. It was a terrible accident. I believe Spoto's theory. in my opinion, it's the most reliable source. But well, lots of people tend to believe those cheap and sensational stories without evidence because that's more interesting to read than those more realistic ones.
Anyway, it's nice everyone's posting his opinion, it's very interesting to read!


I disagree that he had no respect for Marilyn, he actually did try to wean her off pills. I think he truly wanted to save her as I had said before. But yes, you are completely right that he went about it all wrong. In either case he got way too involved which, yes, does make some (including myself) question his motives. Getting involved in her work was going way overboard at least. To quote Ralph Roberts, "He was having her get rid of the people who loved her and were devoted to her. No one sees a psychiatrist for hours and hours at a time and practically lives in their home. It's sick and abnormal."

And I would like to know as I have never seen any of the people who voice this opinion mention it- if Greenson/Murray killed her then what was their motive?

I'm not criticizing anyone's opinions, I'm just interested in what these people who believe that have to say (I've also never read Spoto)...

This post has been edited by abeautifulchild: Mar 25 2008, 12:41 AM
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jonas
post Mar 25 2008, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE(abeautifulchild @ Mar 24 2008, 10:10 PM) *
I disagree that he had no respect for Marilyn, he actually did try to wean her off pills. I think he truly wanted to save her as I had said before. But yes, you are completely right that he went about it all wrong. In either case he got way too involved which, yes, does make some (including myself) question his motives. Getting involved in her work was going way overboard at least. To quote Ralph Roberts, "He was having her get rid of the people who loved her and were devoted to her. No one sees a psychiatrist for hours and hours at a time and practically lives in their home. It's sick and abnormal."

And I would like to know as I have never seen any of the people who voice this opinion mention it- if Greenson/Murray killed her then what was their motive?

I'm not criticizing anyone's opinions, I'm just interested in what these people who believe that have to say (I've also never read Spoto)...


Supposedly, the psychiatric community didn't approve of Greenson's approach to his patients.I read this a long time ago and apparently Marilyn wasn't the only patient he treated in this way.Greenson actually defended his "philosophy" when speaking to his peers and was snubbed and disregarded by many in the community as a result. Plus, he was heavily criticized for how he dealt with Marilyn.
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abeautifulchild
post May 19 2008, 01:46 AM
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QUOTE(jonas @ Mar 25 2008, 02:21 PM) *
Supposedly, the psychiatric community didn't approve of Greenson's approach to his patients.I read this a long time ago and apparently Marilyn wasn't the only patient he treated in this way.Greenson actually defended his "philosophy" when speaking to his peers and was snubbed and disregarded by many in the community as a result. Plus, he was heavily criticized for how he dealt with Marilyn.



I still don't understand why bringing Marilyn into Greenson's home was a bad thing. She obviously enjoyed being around his family very much. She made friends with his son and daughter and attended parties hosted by Greenson. The Greensons were like the Strasbergs to Marilyn in a way: Being around them probably made Marilyn feel like she was a loved member of a family. That could only have eased her state of mind, couldn't it? I mean, I'd like to know why this approach was criticized so harshly when it didn't appear to do any harm to Marilyn.

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magda24
post May 19 2008, 10:23 AM
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QUOTE(abeautifulchild @ May 19 2008, 02:46 AM) *
I still don't understand why bringing Marilyn into Greenson's home was a bad thing. She obviously enjoyed being around his family very much. She made friends with his son and daughter and attended parties hosted by Greenson. The Greensons were like the Strasbergs to Marilyn in a way: Being around them probably made Marilyn feel like she was a loved member of a family. That could only have eased her state of mind, couldn't it? I mean, I'd like to know why this approach was criticized so harshly when it didn't appear to do any harm to Marilyn.

I was always thinking the same thing Alex. Even if Greenson's method wasn't generally accepted and somewhat controversial, then look at the advantages: Marilyn spending her evenings with happy, loving family than with for example leech Peter Lawford. Of course it was only a substitute of her own family but it was better than let Marilyn sit in her empty house, listening to Sinatra records and mixing pills with champagne.The hell with the rules .Perhaps she had at least couple sunny, merry evenings full of laughter and jokes.. I wish that for her.

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jonas
post May 20 2008, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE(magda24 @ May 19 2008, 10:23 AM) *
I was always thinking the same thing Alex. Even if Greenson's method wasn't generally accepted and somewhat controversial, then look at the advantages: Marilyn spending her evenings with happy, loving family than with for example leech Peter Lawford. Of course it was only a substitute of her own family but it was better than let Marilyn sit in her empty house, listening to Sinatra records and mixing pills with champagne.The hell with the rules .Perhaps she had at least couple sunny, merry evenings full of laughter and jokes.. I wish that for her.



Yes, but whatever the reason, Greenson kept quiet after Marilyn's death. He didn't want to be bothered to talk about it. On the other hand, Murray gave various interviews. She may have contradicted herself at times, but she gave them. It almost sounds like Greenson sent her out to the wolves. Something like.."Deal with it Eunice!" Anyway, obeying rules can have its advantages. Maybe the world wouldn't be in the moral state it's in now if the world obeyed "the rules" a bit more.I mean, how can we blame politicians and their immorality for our shortcomings if we don't inculcate in them a desire to obey the rules from the time they're born?
Anyway, Greenson had an involvement,directly or indirectly, in Marilyn's death. His silence was "deafening" to say the least!
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Marilyn Fanatic
post May 20 2008, 06:23 AM
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Have you heard Greenson's voice? In the documentary "Say Goodbye To The President",
he was recorded saying "I can't tell the whole story" and "Ask Bobby Kennedy". Now,
that film was banned here in the US for some time. Very suspicious.

I've always wondered why the issue of her bedroom being bugged is not ever mentioned
in the theories. If it was bugged, that would mean someone heard what happened in that
room the night she died. Evidence of the wires was found when actress Veronica Hamel
owned the home and did some renovations. I've seen a pic of the wires, and I wish I
could find it to post here.



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Tara
post May 20 2008, 04:41 PM
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I don't think Greenson was good for Marilyn. I believe he tried to help her, but went about it the wrong way. I don't agree with Spoto's theory about how Marilyn died though, I think he went too far there. The whole thing of Marilyn looking for surrogate families was double-edged IMO. It made her feel safe, but it also kept her childlike and dependent. There was no way she could make up for her childhood, except by forming real, positive relationships. Some friends felt that Greenson kept her away from them.

Eunice might have hoped she could put across her side of the story by doing interviews, though she was so contradictory that it backfired. After Greenson died she seemed to become more candid. Greenson on the other hand didn't need the money, and his reputation might have suffered if he'd continued to associate himself with Marilyn after she died. He wrote a psychology book though where one of the case studies may have been based on her, though he always denied it.
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liza
post May 21 2008, 12:45 AM
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Well actually , I begin to become sick of all the speculations.
We will never know what really happend that horrible lonely night with Marilyn.
For shure it is that it was a big tradegy that happened the 4th of august and NOT the 5th as they want us to believe.
personaly I think it was Greenson and Murray but they have kept theyre secret and now Marilyn goes on and on in history as a poor creature with too much pills and THATs what makes me sad all the time.
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abeautifulchild
post May 21 2008, 02:51 AM
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It's actually kind of funny- no, not funny- ironic that most people off the street who have never read about monroe think she was murdered rather than died of an overdose. Everyone sort of has this common knowledge like, "Oh, she had an affair with the Kennedy brothers and they murdered her to keep her quiet-" but they know nothing about how the drugs were actually the cause of her death it seems like.

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jonas
post May 27 2008, 01:01 AM
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The drugs may very well have been responsible for her death. Question is, how did they enter her body?Why the inconclusive autopsy report? Why the strange statements made by Greenson and Clemmons? Why did Murray contradict herself in two interviews given within a 20 -year span? Why was there no serious investigation done when everyone at the scene either felt that foul play had taken place or acted in a way which suggested that something needed to be hidden from public knowledge? Marilyn was taking various drugs,no doubt. She had tried to commit suicide previously,too. That doesn't mean she couldn't die by any other means.
Those hours before the police were actually called were so that Greenson and Murray could get their "version" ready. To save their own skins or someone else's? That's the question!
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SummerRaye
post Jun 12 2008, 06:14 AM
Post #120
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Posts: 6
From: Upper New York
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Real Name: SummerRaye Hardy

Joined: 12-June 08


I'm a very new member and hate to say that I've been reading tons of books about this fantastic person (I've been a fan of her work for years but just started reading books and books on her) and found this website (yea!!) and also hate that here, in this sad area of the forum...
BUT
I lilt between murder and accidental. I do not believe that she killed herself on purpose...I also don't believe that she iingested anything to try to get attention and then accidentally died...I think that she possibly had no idea how much she had taken (with some drugs that help people sleep...they forget hours before hand. Sometimes people don't realize that they've taken pills...I had a personal experience where I took a sleeping pill, and it put my mind to sleep and not my body, and I ended up taking more, and that happened a couple of times over a period of 2 hours and I got deathly sick).

But I also dabble in the theory of her being murdered...I don't like reading about the fact that the house was bugged (WHERE ARE THOSE WIRE TAPPED TAPES?!?!?!) and I don't like the different versions of the night from various people, not just the two we have discussed in the previous posts. I don't see a motive...

I'll end my first post with who knows, who will know....
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